Aberrant and abhorrent

Cows like all other mammals have to deliver a baby before they start lactating.

If animals are farmed to produce milk their offspring, be they calves, lambs or kids, are a by-product.

Dairy farms here usually keep most of their heifer calves to raise as replacements or for later sale.

Some might raise some bull calves for beef but most are sold to others to raise or sent for slaughter as bobby calves.

Normal practice is to treat all animals well and make the process from birth to death as fast and humane as possible for the calves.

The mistreatment of calves  shown on Sunday last night is not normal practice.

It is aberrant, abhorrent and appeared to be illegal.

No-one is trying to excuse it.

The Ministry for Primary Industries is investigating and DairyNZ, Federated Farmers and the New Zealand have condemned it:

Dairy industry bodies say they are appalled at the bobby care practices revealed in video footage recorded by animal rights group Farmwatch and released as part of a SAFE public campaign launched against dairy farming.

DairyNZ chief executive Tim Mackle says cruel and illegal practices are in no way condoned or accepted by the industry as part of dairy farming.

“We are shocked and farmers are too,” he says. “We will be asking questions of everyone involved. Farmers don’t see what goes on when calves leave their farm and we need to be holding the transport operators and processing plants to account to ensure bad practices get stamped out of our industry.

“Our surveys show that 95 percent of farmers are compliant with all animal welfare codes and they take great care of their animals including calves. We obviously want to see that even higher because the dairy industry takes its animal welfare responsibilities seriously and we are committed to farming to high standards,” he says.

“There is a range of industry initiatives already in place and we will be boosting our actions with other groups to ensure the care of calves.”

Federated Farmers’ dairy section chair, Andrew Hoggard says “farmers have to farm within strict animal welfare rules and the vast majority care for their animals humanely and responsibly”.

He says the footage released by SAFE and Farmwatch includes some appalling behaviour, by a minority of farmers but also by transport companies and slaughterhouse workers. “This is something we and the industry will not tolerate.

“Federated Farmers strongly, and each season, reinforces to its members that the highest standards of animal welfare must apply when dealing with all calves. The federation will also put resources behind any industry initiatives to review the handling, transport and processing of bobby calves,” says Mr Hoggard. 

Dairy Companies Association of New Zealand executive director Kimberly Crewther says that compliance with the New Zealand codes of welfare is important to dairy companies.

“These codes are internationally recognised as robust.  Where there are breaches we fully support and expect Ministry for Primary Industries’ compliance action,” she says.

This abuse of animals is an indictment on the perpetrators, it should not be taken as a reflection on the whole industry in which most people in the production chain strive for, and achieve, high standards of practice with animal welfare a priority.

UPDATE:

Fonterra says any mistreatment of animals is completely unacceptable to the company and its farmers:

Fonterra has seen the upsetting footage of bobby calves being ill treated provided by SAFE NZ, the subject of this week’s Sunday show on TVNZ.

Any mistreatment of animals is completely unacceptable to Fonterra and our farmers.

Immediate action

We’re taking immediate steps to deal with it alongside the rest of the New Zealand dairy industry:

  • We’ve requested a meeting with SAFE, and will let them know that we share their concern for the treatment of animals, and to seek further information from them on the footage
  • We’re in contact with representatives from the meat industry to discuss what we have seen in the footage to express to them our concerns around the treatment of bobby calves

Animal welfare is our priority

While bobby calves will always be part of the dairy industry, they must be treated with care and respect. Behaviour in this footage in no way represents the vast majority of New Zealand farmers who care about their animals.

As a Co-operative we take a hard line on animal welfare. We’re investigating this and will be taking strong action if any of our people were involved.

Five Freedoms

We work proactively with our farmers to embed best practice and uphold the Five Freedoms:

  • Freedom from hunger or thirst
  • Freedom from discomfort
  • Freedom from pain, injury or disease
  • Freedom to express normal behaviour
  • Freedom from fear and distress through conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering

Responsible dairying

Fonterra is absolutely committed to responsible dairying. We work with our farmers to ensure they maintain the highest standards of animal welfare and they have a strong track record when it comes to on-farm animal welfare practices.

We audit farms annually and have strict controls in place in any instance where these Five Freedoms are not being observed.

Working together with the dairy industry

This includes working with industry representative bodies like Dairy NZ and MPI to support our farmers and ensure best practice is observed on-farm.

We want to let our customers and consumers know that we are taking action to ensure these practices do not happen on Fonterra farms and will be front-footing this issue with other primary industries.

107 Responses to Aberrant and abhorrent

  1. Dave Kennedy says:

    It will be good to know how widespread this is. I suspect that given the wages paid on many dairy farms and the sort of people prepared to work on such low pay, plus the financial pressures, this abuse may be quite widespread. MPI didn’t come out well either, it appears there has been a collective blind eye while the money was pouring in.

  2. fredinthegrass says:

    DK how many dairy farmers do you know personally, or have an intimate knowledge of their operation and its farming practice standards?
    I know quite a number and am relatively aware of “best practice” being strictly adhered to on quite a few others.
    IMHO I believe you are way way off the mark of accuracy – rather espousing a ‘slogan’ that emotional opinion rather than factual evidence is common among the uninformed.
    It goes without saying the practices reported are totally abhorrent, but don’t judge an entire industry on the tiny minority that can be found in most disciplines.
    All too often our judgement is clouded by the Lowest Common Denominator mantra held by the few.

  3. Dave Kennedy says:

    You make a good point fredinthegrass, I know a number of dairy farmers who would never condone such cruelty, however I also know of many cases of poor treatment of both workers and stock.

    I know enough to realize that these are not rare examples as you suggest. Even within the industry there is acknowledgement that around 10% of dairy farmers do not meet satisfactory standards. Even at that percentage it is a hell of a lot for stock and farms.

  4. Mr E says:

    Dave,

    “I suspect that given the wages paid on many dairy farms and the sort of people prepared to work on such low pay, plus the financial pressures, this abuse may be quite widespread.”

    So according to you low wage people are more prone to animal abuse?

    As for MPI, it seems you have been gullible and easily swallowed a negative story. But don’t let the truth hold you back from repeating incorrect slurs.

    http://www.mpi.govt.nz/news-and-resources/media-releases/mpi-works-on-bobby-calf-issue/

  5. Mr E says:

    ” I also know of many cases of poor treatment of both workers and stock”

    How many do you report Dave? If you don’t report them you are part of the problem.

    “Even within the industry there is acknowledgement that around 10% of dairy farmers do not meet satisfactory standards”

    Can you qualify that statement?

    MPI recieves about 500 complaints each year. Usually only 50 odd are confirmed as animal cruelty. If we imagined half of them were dairy(which they aren’t), of the 12,000 odd herds – that is 0.2%

    Your figures seem way way off. And nasty.

  6. Dave Kennedy says:

    Mr E, you can turn this into a personal attack but even if this cruelty occurs on 5% of farms, it is too many.

  7. Mr E says:

    Personal attack?

    There is no personal attack, and I think that suggestion is a poor attempt at distraction from the questions. Questions you apparently can’t answer.

    I noted you made an apparent change from 10% to 5%. That appears to be one of the fastest back peddles I have ever seen.

    Yet I still wonder where you get 5% from, when according to MPI proven cruelty is a tiny tiny fraction of that.

    I would also note that historically you have said ” many (possibly 50%+) mistreat their animals “. It seems you really are all over the show with your nasty slurs.

    50%+, 10%, 5% – what will the next one be?

  8. farmerbraun says:

    Whence comes this 5% figure?
    The practice of arriving in the birthing paddock first thing in the morning, removing all calves from their mothers , placing said calves ever so gently in the trailer , and then high-tailing it out of the paddock with the bellowing mothers running frantically behind is far more than just widespread.
    I smell a cover-up here.

  9. Dave Kennedy says:

    Mr E you are being disingenuous again. My personal belief is that cruelty is partly perception and there are some animal rights advocates who will say that all farming is cruel and unnecessary to some that may feel that animals are lesser beings and the property of the farmer who should be ably to do as they wish.

    Obviously somewhere in the middle is what most would find acceptable. I am comfortable with Ele’s five freedoms and best practice statements.

    We have had a similar discussion before but what MPI has proven (from reported cases only) does not represent the reality. there is clearly much that goes on that is never reported. There have also been huge issues with pig and hen farms where the industry has taken some time to manage poor practice and animal cruelty despite claims that they were on top of it 9they clearly still aren’t).

    I have no idea what the real figure of cruelty is but suspect that it is much greater than 10% and FB appears to think the same.

  10. farmerbraun says:

    What was not addressed in the programme was the corresponding practices in the milking sheep and milking goat industries.
    This is not just a bovine dairy industry problem.

  11. TraceyS says:

    If we ever expect weaning to be pleasant then this is because we have long since forgotten our own experience as wee human beings. In essence we’d be deluded.

    Whether it takes place at four days, or four years, weaning is a painful experience for mammals. The stronger the bond the harder it will be. There is no getting away from it. Yet we continue to be responsible for it – to both our own and other species – and not just to farmed animals but to tamed ones as well such as cute kittens, puppies, guinea pigs, and others.

    Even an act as apparently charming as collecting free-range eggs from the henhouse each day is a form of weaning. The chicken doesn’t enjoy having her eggs taken. They have her babies inside (or she senses that they do). At least the egg can’t feel, unless fertilised of course, in which case it is slowly dying from the moment you remove it from under its mother’s warm skirts.

    Weaning cannot possibly happen totally naturally in a farmed environment. We civilised humans can’t even achieve that for our own babies, most of whom are weaned earlier than nature planned and with all manner of man-made interventions and constructed opportunities for separation, let alone make it happen for other animals. Like it or not we interfere via our practices. Not all of these are to the weaner’s direct benefit or preference.

    Weaning my own kids was both awful and awesome. They don’t remember, but I do.

    Weaning calves is both awful and awesome too because there is stress yet the practice gives us milk. Weaning calves ultimately allows women to wean their own babies much sooner by substituting cows-milk for their human breast-milk. While this may not sound very pleasant it is, nonetheless, still true.

  12. Dave Kennedy says:

    You are quite correct about weaning Tracey, it happens naturally in the animal world too. However I think there is a huge difference between the weaning of your own children and what occurs naturally with animals to what was experienced by cows and bobby calves i the videos. You were in control of the process and you never lost your children. The grief of losing a child for a human is catastrophic, but even if it is a fraction of that for an animal it is still traumatic. Your children weren’t placed in a pen with no drink or sustenance for many hours, thrown harshly into a truck than later beaten to unconsciousness and had their throats cut.

    My hens don’t appear to suffer greatly from their eggs being taken, they tend to abandon them immediately after they are laid. Few women I know grieve when they lose their monthly egg either.

    I’m not sure about the point of your comments.

  13. Will Dwan says:

    Farmerbraun makes a good point about goat /sheep milk. A digger comes out and into the hole they go. The bloodstock industry would not want you to see baby horses from the broodmares getting shot either. And I’m told it will be all over for deer velvet if the public gets a look inside that enterprise. But it’s dairy in everyone’s sights as the climate festival approaches.

    Glad to be a sheep farmer for a change.

  14. farmerbraun says:

    “climate festival approaches.”
    It is certainly a festive start to the silly season as the dreaded “biggest, most catastrophic , shock-horror-probe el Nino in recorded history” delivers steady overnight rain to the Manawatu.
    Doncha just hate that ? 🙂

  15. Dave Kennedy says:

    Oh dear FB the relationship between weather and climate is still lost on you and you need to watch this video again 😉

  16. Gravedodger says:

    “the sort of people prepared to work on such low pay”.

    What “sort” of people Mr Kennedy, Islamic refug—– Illegal immigrants perhaps, or would they be people who bash other parents kids to death, or just everyday National voters perhaps???
    Does your assessment of low pay Mr Kennedy, include vehicle and fuel availability in the package, along with housing, grocery, phones, internet, medical cover, none of which were included in my beginnings as a shepherd over five decades ago apart from the house and boy would you have had a hot keyboard had you visited us in 1963. It was a two bedroom Whare my dad had been accommodated in in the 1930s with a lick of paint as improvements.

    “abuse may be quite widespread”, OK so that is your opinion but it would seem to be rather over egged imeho.
    How about some generalisations introduced to the debate as hard evidence.
    Gee whizz you really are a tool, there were at least three entirely independent operations portrayed under the “what a heartless bunch of people those “Dairy Farmers Are” unbalanced pile of excrement delivered by “Sunday”
    There was no attempt to verify number of farms, how long the file footage had been worked on, was this beatup a charade of greenwash, many of the “Calves seemed to be remarkably similar and just how hard would it be to stage several “incidents” using the same calves with different locations and machinery,.

    The Farm workers were, if accurately portrayed, nothing like the people I actually know and respect across all sectors of dairy farming in 2015.
    The transport operator again is not an accurate portrayal of stock truck drivers I know.
    The processing facility where someone was portrayed kicking calves to move them looked very dodgy as a slaughter house processing Bobby calves for “pet food”. Such processors are very stringently monitored and inspected as all retail pet food is required to match food safety standards as it is contemporaneously stored, sold and kept in most homes alongside meat product for human consumption.
    Looking at the calves and their general condition it appeared to resemble a slink skin operation where dead calves are processed for their skins with a few live calves added for dramatic effect.

    In fact with the long perpetrated activities of the Dutchman Hans Kreik and his crusade against rodeo while never attacking Horse racing, Dog racing, Pigeon racing and similar, it seems to be all just a little too much akin to a propaganda effort than any thing resembling Journalism as the now somewhat tainted Ms Kamo attempted to portray.

    Of course there are mongrels permeating humanity and all their activities as evidenced by the appalling numbers of little children murdered by so called carers but to do a documentary on that subject as revealing and surreptitious as that effort from ‘SAFE’ and embraced so enthusiastically by “Sunday”, what chance?
    However as an anti Dairy Industry beatup with poor standards of authentication, genuine ‘evidence and total lack of balance would seem as likely as Nuns running a brothel in a convent.

    I guess Chris Cairns would be very glad Mr Kennedy was not the foreman on his jury, as prejudice and a closed mind would have had him guilty before Vincent took the stand.

  17. Dave Kennedy says:

    Gravedodger, all over the world there are examples of human cruelty but when i was younger i had thought New Zealand was one of the most humane countries to live in. That was because I was part of a caring family and the communities I lived in reflected the same values.

    Various reports and greater awareness has revealed that this country has a rather dark underbelly that is much bigger than many of us realized. As you pointed out we have a shocking record for the treatment of vulnerable children, our child health and welfare statistics are almost the worst in the OECD and the way we treat animals is pretty shocking too (pigs, hens, deer, cows…). The size and scale of our farms are much bigger than in Europe and the care provided to animals when stock numbers are increasing is reflective of the numbers of workers to the number of stock.

  18. Mr E says:

    Dave,
    “Mr E you are being disingenuous again”.

    No I am not. I wonder if you know the meaning of the word.

    Cruelty to animals is a criminal offence in NZ. I have presented approximates of the MPI stats that suggest abuse cases make up about 0.2% of dairy herds.

    You think the unseen/ unreported is much greater. What your actual figure is, is constantly moving. 50%+, 10%, 5% – you are all over the place with your accusations. Currently you seem to be sitting at 10% of farmers. Lets put that into context.

    Every year about 500 reports of abuse are lodged with MPI. Of which 40-50 are confirmed as abuse and either warned of convicted. So confirmation of abuse against reported is around 10%

    Currently there are at least 38,751 animal farmers in NZ. At 10% you think 3,900 are guilty of animal cruelty. Not 40-50.

    Considering only 10% of reported incidents are confirmed as abuse, all 39,000 farmers would need to be treated with contempt to weed out the worst.

    The context around your argument shows how ridiculous it is.

    Then there is perspective.

    There are roughly 93 million stock units managed by about 150,000 people – and 500 complaints and 50 odd convictions

    On average each person cares for 620 animals and there are 0.3% complaints per person and the complaint rate per animal is 0.0005%

    There are at least 4 million companion animals, 14,000 complaints and 40 odd convictions.

    On average – every person has an animal and there are 0.4% of complaints per person and there are 0.35% complaints per animal.

    The per animal complaint rate is 700 times higher for companion animals. These are animals we keep in our houses, we should care for like our best friends.

    If the public is overly critical of farmers – they need to have a long hard look in the mirror. And we don’t hear SAFE making calls for bans on companion animals do we? How many companion animals do you have Dave? Do you think those should be taken from you?

    I noted you said this Dave,
    “My hens don’t appear to suffer greatly from their eggs being taken, they tend to abandon them immediately after they are laid”

    How would you know Dave? Birds can’t cry, birds can frown or even whimper. They can peck hands – and do.

    And I think your correlation of chickens to humans is stupid.

  19. TraceyS says:

    “…I think there is a huge difference between the weaning of your own children and what occurs naturally with animals to what was experienced by cows and bobby calves i[n] the videos. You were in control of the process and you never lost your children.”

    I weaned my children very gradually. This would be far too expensive to achieve in a farming operation and it would put the price of milk up exponentially. It could also be cruel to the mother animal (hopefully I don’t need to point out why).

    As I’ve already alluded to, major changes to calf-weaning practices would have a flow-on effect to the weaning of human babies. If calf-weaning became a more staged, controlled, or (God forbid) regulated activity then farming costs would rise and the price of milk powder for formula would also rise. Fewer mothers would be able to formula-feed their babies and pressure would go on to breast-feed for longer – even when it may not suit the personal or family circumstances. That would equate to a gross form of social engineering in my view.

    As for my being in control over weaning, yes I was, and enjoyed much more control over this process than most mothers have. In contrast, another woman I worked with (who had a baby around the same time as me), never breastfed and was back in at work a week after the baby was born then back full-time two weeks later. Women face varying social, including socio-economic, pressures which mean they don’t have as much control over the weaning of their infants as we’d like to think they do. Regardless of the psychological side of weaning, the physiological responses of the body will be largely the same between humans and animals. Humans are able to explain the situation to satisfy their internal need for reasoning, other mammals can’t (and probably don’t need to), but this doesn’t stop the milk from flowing. The body has its response regardless – programmed by different parts of the brain to where the reasoning takes place.

    “The grief of losing a child for a human is catastrophic, but even if it is a fraction of that for an animal it is still traumatic.”

    From what I have seen it is stressful for the animal. But they seem to get over it faster than a human would. The stress of weaning for the animal can be managed and minimised. I don’t believe that a cow would be concerned with what happens to their calf after it is out of sight. But whatever it is should be humane and we owe animals that duty. Cutting the throat of an animal destined for processing into a food product is not necessarily inhumane. Whether the calf was killed by this method, shot, shocked, or given a lethal injection would be of no consequence at all to the cow.

    “Your children weren’t placed in a pen with no drink or sustenance for many hours, thrown harshly into a truck than later beaten to unconsciousness and had their throats cut.”

    No. But cows do hide their calves, sometimes for many hours at a time, leaving them alone in direct sunlight with no sustenance until the cow returns. I saw one just the other day. It was tempting to think she had abandoned it, but that was not the case.

    The throwing of calves was terrible to watch but it was not being done by farmers. It would be very unfair to blame farmers for the actions of other parties. But they could, and indeed should, be involved in setting standards for how animals collected from their properties should be treated. And they do have the power to refuse to deal with certain transport operators or abattoirs.

    “My hens don’t appear to suffer greatly from their eggs being taken, they tend to abandon them immediately after they are laid.”

    You possibly don’t have a rooster and your hens aren’t getting broody. We raise our own chickens and generally don’t wean the chicks from their mothers (that’s right, chickens don’t approve of weaning either!). They are one big happy family – roosters and hens all in together. The roosters don’t fight when they have grown up together. When we get too many roosters, we chop their heads off and feed them to the wee weaned humans and the rest of our family who have a biological need to, you know…eat! Perfectly natural!

    By the way, Dave, where do you get your hens from? Maybe rescue hens given their lack of mothering instincts. Hardly a good benchmark for comparing natural chicken behaviours. Our hens actually fight us when we take their eggs. Do you think we should adjust our chicken farming practices to make them less natural (ie. dumb down the hen’s natural instincts) and so reduce this stress for the animal?

    “Few women I know grieve when they lose their monthly egg either.”

    Really, Dave? What about those women who are trying to conceive without success?

    That goes down as the most arrogant, ignorant, and demeaning comment I have ever read from you. Loosing their “monthly egg” can be one of the most grievous experiences a woman may ever face.

  20. Dave Kennedy says:

    Tracey, iIt seems like you are trying to have an argument with me when we are probably have similar views on animal cruelty. I am not going to argue with you regarding human issues with conception and people taking hens eggs.

    Both of us probably agree that good farming is a symbiotic process where animals are fed and given shelter in return for the food they provide (except you do appear to condone the roadside stalls featured in the video).

    My concern is that inhuman and poor farming practice is probably fairly widespread (20% +) and unless there is some sort of independent stocktake, the real extent won’t be known.

  21. Mr E says:

    Tracey,
    Dave is an expert on the minds of chickens, cows, calves, women – you, me. Heck he must be well in tune…..

    His knowledge is such that he can make nasty slurs- seemingly willy nilly, without fact – he just knows these things to be true!

    There are those out there that think mind readers are fake, con people. I don’t know about you, but I think they are wrong. Mind reading is real. So is Santa.

  22. Dave Kennedy says:

    Mr E they are not my “nasty slurs” there is videoed proof and the industry has voiced public concern. What I am suggesting is that the dairy industry will be found no different from the pork industry, a blind eye has been turned to widespread poor practice and we need to know the full extent.

    We already have examples of blatant dishonesty within the clean streams accord and this issue needs an independent review of practice. It was only recently that many have stopped using abortion as a common tool to remove calves. You are just pin dancing for the industry.

  23. Mr E says:

    Dave,

    “Mr E they are not my “nasty slurs” there is videoed proof and the industry has voiced public concern”

    You have made various claims about animal abuse. You claim that somewhere between 50%+ and 5% abuse their animals. There is no evidence of that claim.
    It
    is
    simply
    your
    nasty
    slur

    There does appear to be video evidence of a handful of farmers undergoing weaning behaviours. Some of them doing it in what I would call consider a careless fashion, which I was unhappy about.

    There does appear to be video evidence of rough handling of calves at a slaughter yard. I believe this is part of an investigation.

    To presume that 5-50%+ of the dairy industry abuse animals from this “evidence” is sheer stupidity in my opinion.

    As for you calls of dishonesty regarding the clean streams accord, we have concluded that they are also stupid claims. You have no evidence of dishonesty.

    Again.

  24. Mr E says:

    This made me laugh and I think describes the mentality of those behind the SAFE campaign.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/14077/Carnivore-sex-off-the-menu

  25. Mr E says:

    My response was something like this:

  26. Dave Kennedy says:

    “There does appear to be video evidence of a handful of farmers undergoing weaning behaviours. Some of them doing it in what I would call consider a careless fashion, which I was unhappy about.”

    What is your evidence to support it is only a handful of farmers Mr E? You have no idea. Your attempt to label animal rights activists by the most extreme representatives is no different from me saying that this represents the dairy industry:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/dairy/72798267/record-jail-sentence-for-animal-abuser-michael-whitelock

    http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=210016

    We probably need to review what best practice actually looks like too. Aborting calves was recently an accepted practice, can you explain to me the most common practice for removing calves from their mothers now?
    http://e2nz.org/2010/08/02/calls-to-ban-nz-dairys-abortion-drug/

    Your only strategy at the moment is to demonise me, but your bullying tactics have been exposed before and you have also been shown up for being someone who hides from view and fires blanks. You have no no real evidence to back up your claims and no credibility.

    You ask for evidence of dishonesty, well just look at yourself Mr E, you must have a short memory 😉

  27. Mr E says:

    Dave,

    Crickey you are getting desperate with your arguements.

    Read what I said “There does appear to be video evidence of a handful of farmers undergoing weaning behaviours.”

    Watch the video – there is apparently only a handful of farmers on it. The video is evidence of them only – no body else. Trying to drag others into the issue is just nasty in my opinion.

    And you are making gross misrepresentations of my remarks.
    I made no remark about “animal rights activists”. I put up an article about Hans Kriek, the Executive director of SAFE who apparently won’t have sex with carnivores because their bodies are made up of dead animals.

    I am still laughing.

    If you think his and his wifes state of mind reflects that of animal rights activists – that is all you…..! Nothing to do with me!

    “We probably need to review what best practice actually looks like too.”

    I doubt you need to do anything. The industry is doing well enough without some of your silly nasty ideas.

    http://www.dairynz.co.nz/animal/calves-and-young-stock/bobby-calves/

    https://www.mpi.govt.nz/protection-and-response/animal-welfare/codes-of-welfare/

    http://dcv.nzva.org.nz/sites/default/files/domain-5/Animal%20Health%20and%20Welfare%20Brochure%20pdf.pdf

    http://www.dairynz.co.nz/animal/calves-and-young-stock/calves/

    http://www.dairynz.co.nz/media/2454558/Calving_tips_Stocksense_takehome_notes_A5_WEB.pdf

    “Your only strategy at the moment is to demonise me”

    I am not demonising you. I am being critical of your silly nasty comments. If your comments reflect badly on you, I am not responsible.

    Your weird claims of dishonesty and bullying are a joke. I think an attempt to distract from the conversation. Stick to the topic Dave.

  28. Mr E says:

    Dave,

    I created a comment that disappeared into moderation because of too many links. This is it with some of the links removed…

    Dave,

    Crickey you are getting desperate with your arguements.

    Read what I said “There does appear to be video evidence of a handful of farmers undergoing weaning behaviours.”

    Watch the video – there is apparently only a handful of farmers on it. The video is evidence of them only – no body else. Trying to drag others into the issue is just nasty in my opinion.

    And you are making gross misrepresentations of my remarks.
    I made no remark about “animal rights activists”. I put up an article about Hans Kriek, the Executive director of SAFE who apparently won’t have sex with carnivores because their bodies are made up of dead animals.

    I am still laughing.

    If you think his and his wifes state of mind reflects that of animal rights activists – that is all you…..! Nothing to do with me!

    “We probably need to review what best practice actually looks like too.”

    I doubt you need to do anything. The industry is doing well enough without some of your silly nasty ideas.

    http://www.dairynz.co.nz/animal/calves-and-young-stock/bobby-calves/

    https://www.mpi.govt.nz/protection-and-response/animal-welfare/codes-of-welfare/

    Plus 3 other redacted links from DairyNZ and Fonterra to calf welfare. You should note that Fonterra has requirements on suppliers regarding bobby calf treatment. It is part of their accreditation and agreement to supply. It raises the question if some of the video was real or of Fonterra farmers.

    “Your only strategy at the moment is to demonise me”

    I am not demonising you. I am being critical of your silly nasty comments. If your comments reflect badly on you, I am not responsible.

    Your weird claims of dishonesty and bullying are a joke. I think an attempt to distract from the conversation. Stick to the topic Dave.

  29. Paranormal says:

    DK, perhaps if you were to consider your argument in a different context it may help you understand how ridiculous it sounds.

    We note there have been some recent convictions for serious abuses by teachers. These are not videoed allegations but actual prosecutions for some very bad behaviour that is probably only the tip of the iceberg.

    It will be good to know how widespread this is. I suspect that given the wages paid in many schools and the sort of people prepared to work on such low pay, plus the financial pressures, this abuse may be quite widespread. NZEI and co don’t come out well either, it appears there has been a collective blind eye while the money was pouring in.

  30. TraceyS says:

    “My concern is that inhuman and poor farming practice is probably fairly widespread (20% +) and unless there is some sort of independent stocktake, the real extent won’t be known.”

    And until then you will continue to make up the numbers, right Dave?

    I can’t agree with you on that. I prefer a more scientific approach.

    Sorry. And we were so close to agreeing, darn it!

  31. Roger Barton says:

    Paranormal gets sledge of the year award re teachers! Great work.

    On another matter, that of animal welfare, I was reported many years ago for not feeding my sheep properly. They were on a paddock of swedes which I had break fed in about two week blocks. In the last break the break fronted our no exit road. As the feeding went on all the green top was well gone and the hoggets were getting into the bulbs. A neighbours friend confronted me about what I was feeding my sheep. I had already by this stage noticed that someone, I presume an SPCA inspector, had ventured marginally into the paddock to inspect it. I was about 1 km away looking from my hill country at the time.
    Obviously the informant was profoundly ignorant of my wintering process but was too embarrassed to admit they had “sobbed me in”.
    I have a long memory.
    I am unconvinced on some of the footage ex TV. Lack of tags in calves suggest they are not going to commercial slaughter in one of the clips. I also heard that the slaughter house makes use of prison labour ex Springhill. Perhaps some of Andrew Littles mates returning from Christmas Island could apply for work here. Some would have the necessary qualifications from all accounts!

  32. Dave Kennedy says:

    Paranormal, your comparison with teachers is pure nonsense, the rate of punishable improper behaviour is one of the lowest of all professions (around .01%). Teachers have more scrutiny applied to their work than almost any other job, they have ongoing appraisals and regular ERO reviews. Unlike calves, children can report bad behaviour and parents can easily complain (and do) if they suspect misconduct. Few teachers throw the children around, kick them or place them in crates without sustenance.

    Here are some verified figures regarding dairy farms:

    36% of Canterbury dairy farms are non-compliant and warning notices last year tripled.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201777062/36-percent-canterbury-dairy-farms-non-compliant

    Dr Mackle CEO of Dairy NZ claims that 5% of dairy farms are not complying with animal welfare guidelines. While I believe this figure is vastly under-estimated it still involves a lot of farms and around 335,000 animals not being treated well.
    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/irate-animal-rights-activists-threaten-to-send-footage-of-bobby-calves-uk-media.html

    “The Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) investigated 128 farms in Canterbury in 2014 and found bobby calves being routinely killed by blunt force trauma, emaciated cattle, and animals left sick, lame and unattended.”
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/67465399/call-to-punish-cruel-farmers

    It is clear that MPI has been soft on animal abuse when so few convictions resulted.

    You are all apologists for the appalling!

  33. Roger Barton says:

    For many years we have employed a student over the busier summer period. Almost without fail I have been appalled at their clear lack of ability to do quite basic maths. A simple question, when vaccinating a mob of ewe hoggets, established that deducting 250
    (The number that can be treated from one vaccine pack) from a total of 600 could only yield an answer of “I’m shit at maths” after firstly delivering a blank stare. DK might not see that as a fail of a teacher or the education system but it indicates a total lack of fundamental skills in relevant areas.
    Is this not abuse of a form? Claiming a salary and clearly under performing but then not getting picked up by that notoriously useless body called ERO.

  34. Name Withheld says:

    Almost without fail I have been appalled at their clear lack of ability to do quite basic maths.
    It’s just as well you didn’t ask him to spell “hogget”.
    If out resident teacher’s English skills are anything to go by, the answer would be “I’m shit at spelling”.

  35. farmerbraun says:

    It seems to be clear that the worst footage was of a pet food factory, but Joe Public et al will blithely carry on feeding the products of that industry to pets.
    The dairy “farmers” though routinely and flagrantly flout the animal welfare code that is referenced at the top of this post.
    The fact is that ignoring the code is not just standard practice on most large dairy farms – in fact it is regarded as best practice.

    Freedom to express normal behaviour
    Freedom from fear and distress through conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering.

    It seems pointless to argue about the numbers. The practice of ripping the calves off their mothers before the calf can be licked and fed by the mother is standard practice.
    The practice does not comply with the animal welfare code.
    End of story 🙂

  36. farmerbraun says:

    “You are all apologists for the appalling!”
    Decisions are being made on purely economic grounds, with the approval of all politicians , because NZ Inc. is in debt and the bills must be paid.
    The NZ economy is no more than the sum total of all the individual household and business economies.
    it is completely wrongheaded to try and lay the blame on any one group or sector.
    NZ Inc lives beyond its means , and economic necessity therefore dictates behaviour.

  37. Paranormal says:

    Oh really DK? So the NZEI has never protected dud teachers?

    To help you understand further compare my comment with yours of 30/11 10:51. Anything stand out for you?

  38. homepaddock says:

    “You are all apologists for the appalling!”

    Nobody is apologising for nor defending the appalling. The argument is over your using this example of illegal and immoral practice to damn the industry.

    Any non-compliance is an issue, regardless of the number is a problem but some non-compliance is a result of poor record keeping rather than poor practice.

    Apropos of the footage – it was filmed in the winters of 2014 and 2015 http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/74542356/waikato-dairy-farmers-disgusted-at-abusive-behaviour

    If SAFE cared more about the animals than destroying the industry and wanted to make a difference rather than a fuss it would have reported it immediately. Anyone who allows animal abuse to continue for political purposes is as bad as the abusers.

  39. JC says:

    “the rate of punishable improper behaviour is one of the lowest of all professions (around .01%).”

    Uh huh. But there are still 100-150 convicted teachers each year out of about 50,000 or 0.3%.

    http://www.statschat.org.nz/2012/02/13/tip-of-the-icecube/

    Thats 50,000 teachers failing 20-30% of their pupils each year.. about 150-230,000 kids, mostly of a brown hue.
    How does that compare with 40,000 livestock mangers looking after all those millions of animals?

    JC

  40. Dave Kennedy says:

    “it is completely wrongheaded to try and lay the blame on any one group or sector.”
    I quite agree FB, animal cruelty, like our shocking child health and safety record, only occurs because we collectively allow it to happen. Partly it is because the industry hides the truth and regulators refuse to take real action. Most of the public were ignorant of the truth behind the industry and many of us are in denial.

    Our reputation overseas as a clean green and humane country is rapidly disappearing, not helped by our Prime Minister earning us the “Fossil Award” for such a weak climate target in Paris.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/element-magazine/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503340&objectid=11553913

    The greater the number of personal attacks on myself and the teaching profession, the more it is clear that those defending this revelation of an industry based on mass cruelty have few arguments in defense. It is also interesting that no one attacks FB for being even more damning about common practices than myself:

    “It seems pointless to argue about the numbers. The practice of ripping the calves off their mothers before the calf can be licked and fed by the mother is standard practice.
    The practice does not comply with the animal welfare code.”

    Buying organic dairy is probably the way to go for consumers to send the right messages to the industry.

  41. Name Withheld says:

    If SAFE cared more about the animals than destroying the industry and wanted to make a difference rather than a fuss it would have reported it immediately. Anyone who allows animal abuse to continue for political purposes is as bad as the abusers.

    A good point, well said Ele.
    The advice for reporting abuse, taken from the “Farmwatch” site is very telling also….
    “If you see or hear about mistreatment or cruelty towards animals, please notify us immediately with as much detail as possible by completing the form below. Contact details are preferred, but not compulsory. Your details will remain completely anonymous. Animal abuse happens on farms in NZ every day and we shouldn’t tolerate it.”
    In other words, “To hell with the animals. Tell us and we will make the most political capital out of it”
    Despicable hypocritical pr**ks.

  42. Dave Kennedy says:

    “If SAFE cared more about the animals than destroying the industry and wanted to make a difference rather than a fuss it would have reported it immediately.”
    Only it was clear that strong action rarely occurred after complaints and many poor practices were being accepted as legitimate. The documentary was the best thing that they could have done to achieve real change and the same was needed to manage common cruelty in the pig industry.

    Individual complaints would never address the endemic issues.

    What I find truly incredible is the attitude amongst many commenters here. Rather than turning on the farmers who are letting down the industry and our countries reputation, with such shocking and blatant cruelty, their condemnation is being turned onto those who exposed it and (unbelievably) the teaching profession. Pointing the finger at others instead is a pretty low response.

    Good grief!

  43. Name Withheld says:

    What I find truly incredible is the attitude amongst many commenters here. Rather than turning on the farmers who are letting down the industry and our countries reputation, with such shocking and blatant cruelty, their condemnation is being turned onto those who exposed it and (unbelievably) the teaching profession. Pointing the finger at others instead is a pretty low response.

    What a load of absolute utter bollocks.

    You cannot comprehend the thrust of a contrary argument without going off on a dramatic tangent created by your own own warped imagination.
    I suggest you read the points made more carefully and really try and separate your own bias from facts before committing your keyboard to such rubbish.

  44. Dave Kennedy says:

    NW, I have read through every comment of yours on this thread and found not one worthwhile link or fact, mainly personal attacks on myself.

    If you disagree with the facts and data I present then find some that counter them, your lack of substance oozes from every abusive statement.

  45. Name Withheld says:

    NW, I have read through every comment of yours on this thread and found not one worthwhile link or fact,
    “What a load of absolute utter bollocks.” is a worthwhile fact.
    Links are research, not facts. Try and form an opinion for yourself instead endlessly referring us to the opinions of others.You don’t assign “homework” any more remember?

    mainly personal attacks on myself.
    Oh…did you think the reference to the teaching of English referred to you?

    Field Guide to Narcissism 1.
    The narcissist will always try and make it about “ME”

  46. JC says:

    “If you disagree with the facts and data I present then find some that counter them,”

    I haven’t followed this thread very closely but its obvious that commentators have expressed anger and disapproval of the practices outlined in the film and that you as usual have charged in with wild accusations that the practice is so widespread its 5% one post, 10%, 20% or 50% in others in order to increase and prolong the antagonism you are so desperate to create ie, pure trolling.

    When the same modus is turned on your own profession using facts you are furious, aggressive.. and as greasy as you could possibly be, the normal Green response to being challenged who after all, and as everyone should know are above fault or censure.

    No one can debate you because you don’t want that, once your mendacity is shown you apply Alinsky’s “Rules For Radicals”, particularly..

    “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.”

    Thats what you’ve been doing, you long ago gave up on debate and now you attack people or the group.

    Then you move on to the next phase..

    “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.”

    When your attack is not going well enough and people are attacking *you* you demand people follow their own rules of decency so that they will ease back and you (who is above such rules) can attack with less opposition. Pretty soon you will be appealing to the blog owner for moderation so your attacks can proceed unimpeded.. if not on this thread but the ones to come.

    There are a couple of other things you will do, but I’ll happily comment on them as they occur.. if I can be bothered.

    JC

  47. Dave Kennedy says:

    JC, you are just following the same approach as others of refusing to engage with the real issues and denying the reality. Farmerbraun has also suggested that cruel practices are common place. Removing calves from their mothers before they have been licked and had a drink is widespread and is against the code that Ele presented.

    I am completely upfront with the fact I have no conclusive data on how widespread cruelty is and neither do you. This needs to be properly established by an independent authority with the full co-operation of the industry. It is clear from other information that is publicly available that many dairy farmers regularly flout the rules (at least 1/3 in Canterbury alone, see the earlier link). Claims that the cruelty involves a tiny minority is obviously not true.

    This is a hugely worrying situation for our international reputation and attacking myself and teachers is just a waste of energy. It would be good to have debate, but read the comments, most just involve desperate finger pointing elsewhere to shift the attention and attempts to discredit me. I totally agree with farmerbraun’s summation that we can’t just blame farmers or the industry for this we need to address wider cultural and systemic issues that allow acts of cruelty to happen.

    We have to face up to the fact that as a nation we are generally cruel and that is true in education too (bullying management practices are common). Our treatment of CYFs kids is abysmal, we have shocking youth and farmer suicide rates and these shouldn’t occur at this level in a truly caring society. We are cruel to our children, our vulnerable adults and to our animals. Compassion is sadly lacking in New Zealand society and knee jerk reactions are common too.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11384751

  48. JC says:

    Alinsky Rule No 8

    “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.” Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new.”

    JC

  49. Dave Kennedy says:

    JC, the only calculated strategy I see is yours, shift the attention somewhere else (teachers), attack the messenger with labels and obfuscation. Alinsky rules…good grief 😉

    I wonder why you don’t direct you anger at FB too? he is stauncher than me about the extent of animal cruelty?

    By the way I don’t see you as the enemy just misguided and a sucker for industry and Government spin. Do your own thinking for goodness sake!

  50. Name Withheld says:

    Do your own thinking for goodness sake!

    And uttered without a trace of irony!
    Good grief!(TM)

  51. JC says:

    “JC, the only calculated strategy I see is yours, shift the attention somewhere else (teachers), attack the messenger with labels and obfuscation. Alinsky rules…good grief ”

    Don’t try that with me Sunshine, I was playing this game against the best in the cesspools of the old newsgroups 20 years ago. You are immediately recognisable for spamming, flooding and trolling.

    http://www.newsdemon.com/usenet-terms.php

    JC

  52. Dave Kennedy says:

    JC, read the definition of troll and look at your own comments. The only reason you try and apply the troll label label to me is because I bring an alternative view to this blog. That is obviously frightening and challenging for you, given your emotional responses.

    If I was a real troll then Ele would have removed me long ago and yourself and others wouldn’t go to such extreme lengths to attack me. I am a moderator on a closed facebook discussion group and write my own blog, I have a reasonable understanding of the definition of a troll and I clearly do not fit it.

    Those who join a thread with the sole goal of making personal attacks and not add constructively to the thread are trolls. It is easy to read through the comments and see which ones only contain personal putdowns and you are overly represented. It is obvious that you cut your internet forum teeth in “cesspools”, you hardly needed to tell us that is your background 😉

    This was the closest you ever came to a constructive comment in this whole thread:

    “Thats 50,000 teachers failing 20-30% of their pupils each year.. about 150-230,000 kids, mostly of a brown hue.
    How does that compare with 40,000 livestock mangers looking after all those millions of animals?”

    The fact that teaching has only a 10% (at best) influence on student achievement (the rest is genetics and socioeconomic background) passed completely over your head as you gain most of your knowledge from blatant spin. I would love to know your source for the 50,000 teachers failing 20-30% of their pupils each year (this will be another challenge with no response to add to all the others where evidence was not forthcoming).

    As I said before, you should try doing your own thinking for once and actually do a bit of research…personal attacks and repeating spin only go so far, but I guess it is just a reflection of our wider bullying culture.

  53. farmerbraun says:

    I have not used the word “cruel”- a very loaded and subjective adjective.

  54. Dave Kennedy says:

    FB, sorry if I misrepresented you, how would you describe it, ‘inhumane’?

    I would have thought removing a calf in a way that doesn’t allow some maternal contact would be cruel.

  55. Name Withheld says:

    yourself and others wouldn’t go to such extreme lengths to attack me.
    Oh dear oh dear. It is only your inflated ego that thinks anyone here would go to “extreme” lengths concerning anything about you, Mr Kennedy. “Mild amusement” tedium would describe any interaction I might have with you.

    Field Guide to Narcissism 2.
    The narcissist has an overwhelming sense of his personal importance.

  56. farmerbraun says:

    Cruel implies intent to hurt.
    I would stick with “in contravention of the animal welfare code”.

  57. Dave Kennedy says:

    NW, I agree that in your case extreme lengths isn’t applicable, but Mr E must sometimes spend ours trying to dredge up stuff to discredit me. You just go directly to the spin and regurgitate it and endlessly repeat the same phrases 😉 No evidence to support your wild claims yet I note.

    FB, I guess ‘cruel” can be subjective in its meaning (and you can have ‘unintentionally cruel’), however is ignorance an excuse for what are essentially cruel outcomes?

  58. farmerbraun says:

    Farmers have been advised that the separation is best practice: welfare was not mentioned.

  59. TraceyS says:

    “Only it was clear that strong action rarely occurred after complaints and many poor practices were being accepted as legitimate. The documentary was the best thing that they could have done to achieve real change and the same was needed to manage common cruelty in the pig industry.”

    The making of a complaint, and a documentary, are not mutually exclusive choices. They could have done both. That would have been the right thing to do.

    I guess making a complaint concurrent to a documentary would have risked things being sorted out before the documentary aired.

    I think it is clear that impact was put before animal welfare in this case. Dave practically admitted it. How can that possibly be right?

    Delaying acting or turning a blind eye (even temporarily), because it is convenient or serves other purposes, is the real reason why we have too many tragic cases of child abuse in New Zealand.

    If I knew there was abuse of a child going on next door would I wait for the documentary to come out on it? No. I would do whatever I could do right now to help that child.

  60. TraceyS says:

    “Most of the public were ignorant of the truth behind the industry and many of us are in denial.”

    Dave, there are more than two states of awareness. In many arguments you seem to acknowledge only the most negative ones.

    Why is that?

    “…the more it is clear that those defending this revelation of an industry based on mass cruelty have few arguments in defense.”

    In that single sentence you reveal what you truly think; that the dairy industry is an industry based on mass cruelty.

    And you wonder why you elicit an impassioned response from others!

  61. JC says:

    “(this will be another challenge with no response to add to all the others where evidence was not forthcoming).”

    Ah, but that would just playing your game of sowing further dissension so that by about the fourth post you would thunder that the group has no morality and retire to your own blog to preach your mix of lies, conspiracies and moral rightness to.. uh.. yourself. Fortunately you don’t reply to yourself like Colin Craig.. come to think of it, no one else does either.

    JC

  62. Dave Kennedy says:

    JC, you are paranoid, I am but one person and you are many, if you believe that i can control the discussion then I’m flattered. I just believe that if you disagree with another’s view you counter it with a rational response, supported by evidence. I don’t understand why you would be afraid of that debating style unless your evidence doesn’t exist.

    Tracey, If you look at how women achieved the vote, how we stopped apartheid in South Africa, how we stopped mining in national parks, how we drew attention to Japanese whaling and how we stopped the widespread use of sow crates was a similar approach to this documentary.

    Other than the milk that is produced from a cow, perhaps you can explain the positives that I appear to have missed. Perhaps we now have a good argument for organic guidelines for animal husbandry.

  63. Mr E says:

    “Mr E must sometimes spend ours trying to dredge up stuff to discredit me”

    Don’t flatter yourself Dave. I don’t have to discredit you. I think you do a great job of that all by yourself. No effort required by me at all.

    This is the obvious truth.
    Largely people are grateful that SAFE have recorded some individuals displaying shocking behaviours and reported them to MPI

    Largely people are pleased that MPI are investigating the recordings

    Largely people are disappointed that SAFE have claimed that all dairy farmers abuse livestock.

    SAFE are claiming that the act of forced weaning is abuse.

    All domesticated animals undergo forced weaning. Cattle, deer, sheep, goats, ostriches, donkeys, horses, chickens, pigs, rats, mice, guinea pigs, cats, dogs. (fish excluded)

    By suggesting forced weaning is abuse, presumably SAFE infer that nearly every single person in NZ is an animal abuser. Most cat owners, dog owners, chicken owners included.

    They are extremest activist views, and have been condemned by many many people.

    Dave supports the unpopular views of extremest vegansexuals.

    Dave has been a regular participant of the local vegan society meetings.

    Who needs to discredit? The facts stand for themselves.

  64. JC says:

    “JC, you are paranoid, I am but one person and you are many,”

    There you go again.. seeking to shape the situation for the same old same old..

    Alinsky Rule No 11.

    “If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive.” Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog.”

    JC

  65. Dave Kennedy says:

    Mr E you’re at it again, read back through my comments and see where I actually sit. Right from the start I stated that I supported Ele’s five freedoms and farmerbraun’s organic husbandry approach. Nice try, but that approach is getting a little tired, try honesty for a bit 😉

    JC, how about being less violent then? If you believe those are the rules don’t fall for the trap…chuckle 😉

  66. Mr E says:

    Dave,
    I am satisfied that my comment is truthful.

    I am disappoint with your apparent lies though.
    Eg.
    “Dr Mackle CEO of Dairy NZ claims that 5% of dairy farms are not complying with animal welfare guidelines. ”

    And this is what you link actually says.

    “Dr Mackle claims surveys show 95 per cent of New Zealand farmers are fully compliant with the code of animal welfare.”

    It seems you and the vegan sexuals have a lot in common.

    Gross
    Misrepresentation
    Of the
    Situation.

    Your display of politics is some of the most pathetic I have seen. I think you comments here are an embarrassment to politics.

    Principled
    Party
    Indeed.

  67. Dave Kennedy says:

    Mr E, if 95% of farmers are fully compliant what does that mean for the 5% that aren’t? I’m guilty of paraphrasing only. 😉

    Back to the drawing board Mr E, third time lucky?

  68. Mr E says:

    “Mr E, if 95% of farmers are fully compliant what does that mean for the 5% that aren’t?”

    Oh good lord!

    It seems 95% of Greens have intelligence.

    The answer Dave is, the 5% could be many many things. Including things like non respondent. Your assumption is misrepresentation and just nasty.

  69. Roger Barton says:

    Should we be advocating spot inspections by MPI of all systems relating to the bobby calf industry?
    Any comments?
    Or should farmers be given advanced warning a bit like ERO, that useless industry body checking off our education industry, who give schools months of warning pre inspection?

  70. Paranormal says:

    DK let’s summarise.

    At the risk of generalisation everyone here agrees with Ele that what was shown was to quote “aberrant and abhorrent”.

    For the avoidance of any doubt:
    aberrant: /əˈbɛr(ə)nt/ adjective departing from an accepted standard.
    abhorrent: /əbˈhɒr(ə)nt/ adjective inspiring disgust and loathing; repugnant.

    You’ve then cynically come in and used the aberrant and abhorrent cruelty to animals for your own political purposes. Even to the extent you claimed everyone here “are all apologists for the appalling” and similar. You’ve even agreed your own words on the subject were to quote “pure nonsense” (possibly the only part you’ve got right).

    I’m not sure which is the more abhorrent – the original animal cruelty or your own behaviour using the suffering of animals for your own political ends. That is why you are treated with derision.

    BTW JC is spot on with his analysis. The more you deny it the more obvious it gets. (Does that make you a denier as well? 🙂 )

  71. Dave Kennedy says:

    “the 5% could be many many things. Including things like non respondent.”
    MR E, rubbish, it was clearly meant as I read it. Three failures…try something else 😉

    Roger, parents visit schools unannounced and their children go home telling them what occurred in their day. Multiple eyes are focused on teacher performance. I have had to support a number of young beginning teachers, still learning the job, who had been criticised by parents with demands for their removal for minor concerns that came about through inexperience.

    The Clean Stream Accord was based on trust but in 2011 the 84% of waterways that were claimed to be stock excluded turned out to be only 42% when MAF did an audit. So when I hear that farmers say that bobby calf abuse only occurs on a small minority of farms, I do question what that is based on.

    Farmerbraun suggested a coverup and claimed weaning practices that didn’t follow welfare practices was more than widespread and included the sheep and goat industries too.

    It is abundantly clear that the management of young animals on New Zealand farms often slips below basic welfare standards. We have only just recently moved away from aborting calves as common practice.

    Public tolerance around the treatment of animals is constantly evolving, I had relatives who had battery hens and back in the 60’s that was considered perfectly acceptable. Hen and pig farmers had to change their practices after public scrutiny and now the focus is on the dairy industry.

    There have been two wake up calls: the drop in commodity prices has meant a more intense focus on organics and adding value; and the exposing of the treatment of bobby calves will mean a shift to more humane practices. Either you waste your energy attacking the likes of me and denying the reality or you treat these as opportunities to develop a more resilient and sustainable industry.

  72. Name Withheld says:

    MR E, rubbish, it was clearly meant as I read it. Three failures…try something else
    Nope.. three direct hits from where I am sitting.
    Mind you with a target as soft and doughy as yourself, I’m not surprised you don’t notice the impacts.

  73. Mr E says:

    “MR E, rubbish, it was clearly meant as I read it”

    That is extremely funny. Funny because you don’t even know the data that you are making claims about. I predict you are going to feel very foolish when you figure it out. Very very foolish.

    These ridiculous, nasty, false assumptions that you make do nothing for the image of your party.

    Certainly they just make me distrust nearly anything you say.

  74. Mr E says:

    NW,

    Dave has been accused of narcissism. It seems hard not to see some validity to these claims, when Dave seems intent on rewarding his own ego.

  75. Dave Kennedy says:

    NW and Mr E, wasted energy…the fact that you ignored my last comment completely is an indication of where you sit. That attitude is one of the reasons why our dairy industry is in the place where it is and why farmer suicides are only going to increase.

    A real problem has been identified, and you can attack the messengers all you like, but Pandora’s Box has been opened and what has been released has to be managed appropriately in the interests of the animals and the farmers. if a farmer is struggling on low returns then being hit with animal welfare demands is just another pressure.

    The real extent of the animal welfare problem isn’t actually known and if the industry was doing its job then the videos would never have been produced. According to truck drivers few farms have easy loading facilities for bobby calves for a start.

    I’m sure Farmerbraun has less problems sleeping at night than many ‘traditional’ farmers, shifting to more sustainable, cleaner and more humane practices is actually a win win for everyone. It is interesting to note that when the abolition of slavery was first suggested it was claimed that the world’s economy would collapse. Doing things properly shouldn’t be so frightening 😉

  76. Name Withheld says:

    if a farmer is struggling on low returns then being hit with animal welfare demands is just another pressure.

    Another pressure?
    You really and truly don’t have a clue, do you?

  77. Dave Kennedy says:

    NW, you obviously have no clue yourself otherwise you would have put forward a rational argument rather than the series of unsupported dismissive statements that you specialise in. 😉

  78. Mr E says:

    Dave,

    I didn’t ignore your comment. More lies from you.

    “That attitude is one of the reasons why our dairy industry is in the place where it is and why farmer suicides are only going to increase.”

    You are predicting an increase in suicides, because of your views? That is very very nasty Dave. A very very low level to sink to.

    And I think you are wrong. The outcome of SAFE’s approach is an incredible outpouring of pride from dairy farmers. I think the programme has motivated farmers to speak up. I doubt they will they beaver away quietly – posing as an easy target.

    In recent times, a petition has been created to revoke SAFE’s status as a charity. Today that petition reached 5000 (so I am told).

    https://www.change.org/p/chief-executive-of-new-zealand-charities-trevor-garrett-revoke-safe-s-status-as-an-official-new-zealand-charity

    I also understand their have been calls to complain to the broadcasting standards authority about the bias nature of the story.

    All around the country farmers are painting their cars, and posting pictures of themselves loving their livestock.

    https://www.facebook.com/Farmers-against-SAFE-We-love-our-animals-799956743464293/?fref=ts

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/ondemand/seven-sharp/02-12-2015/series-2015-episode-217

    I think the farmers have become stronger from this incident. That are unifying and it is great to see.

    Sadly SAFE won’t be feeling the same. According to them, they did’nt expect the response they got and the public have been treating them like “sh.t”

    The only people who I feel for some the vegans and vegansexuals who will be licking their wounds – pardon the pun. Some of them don’t share this extremist nasty view that you have, and have been caught up in this.

  79. Mr E says:

    This is a logo from the Invercargill vegan society

    invsoc-green

    Does anyone think the logo is familiar?

    For reference.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingsoc

  80. Mr E says:

    Friendly bunch.

  81. Dave Kennedy says:

    Mr E, It is just a repeat of what happened to Mike Joy when John Key made him out to be an enemy of our economy for speaking out about the quality of our rivers…and now SAFE are having their charity status removed for revealing things that were actually happening.

    I have just had a conversation with a an ex farmers wife who told me that the treatment seen was commonplace on the farms where she lived and that she always felt uncomfortable about the cruelty, but it was just how things were done.

    I am not predicting a rise of suicides because of my views, I am predicting an increase because the industry lacks forward thinking. When other farming sectors have had to deal with greater scrutiny regarding animal welfare the dairy industry should have expected the same to happen to it. If there was proper diligence done regarding monitoring of the treatment of bobby calves and slaughter houses then the videos could have never been made.

    There is a bullying culture in NZ that attacks whistleblowers or anyone who exposes shocking realities. Here are examples:
    -Mike Joy reveals reality of water quality and species extinction, labeled a traitor and under constant attack
    -Heather du Plessis-Allan reveals loopholes in police systems when purchasing guns online, has her house searched (a team came down from Auckland to do it).
    -Nicky Hager writes dirty politics, none of the facts disputed, his house raided his computer taken, his daughter forced to get dressed in front of police and her computer taken too.
    -Relationships Aotearoa writes a submission against cuts in funding and increased workload and has funding cut completely.
    -The Problem Gambling Foundation was too good at its job at reducing pokie machine numbers and problem gamblers, the industry complained and they had their funding cut too (recently reversed through court action).
    -Now it appears SAFE will have their charity status removed.

    It is also noticeable here how people engage with my comments, no rational arguments or evidence to show a different reality, just full on personal attacks. To me that just proves the weakness of your position.

    “All around the country farmers are painting their cars, and posting pictures of themselves loving their livestock.”

    A pity this came out on the same day:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/dairy/74637267/taranaki-farmer-sentenced-for-breaking-tails-of-157-cows

    Rather than pretty pictures and taking out SAFE there just needs to be greater scrutiny applied to catch abusive farmers before they create more of a problem for the industry and our reputation (and for the animals sake).

  82. Dave Kennedy says:

    Mr E, just saw the images you put up, that is as clever as NZ First arranging the Red Peak flag so that it looks like a swastka. You really are in full dirty attack mode. If anyone speaks out against the dairy industry beware, you will have your funding removed and you will be associated Hitler and Socialists!

    Oh dear oh dear… I wonder what Ele thinks about the use of Hitler?

    That is a new low, even for you Mr E.

  83. Name Withheld says:

    Oh dear oh dear… I wonder what Ele thinks about the use of Hitler?
    Mummy….Mummy….the grownups are being real beastly and mean to me again.
    Make them stop.
    sob.

  84. Dave Kennedy says:

    NW, read all your previous comments and reflect on your contribution here…good grief!

  85. Name Withheld says:

    good grief!(TM)

  86. JC says:

    “Oh dear oh dear… I wonder what Ele thinks about the use of Hitler?”

    Wow, it took just 28 hours for my prophesy to be fulfilled.

    12.01 pm yesterday.

    “Pretty soon you will be appealing to the blog owner for moderation so your attacks can proceed unimpeded.. if not on this thread but the ones to come.”

    JC

  87. Dave Kennedy says:

    “Pretty soon you will be appealing to the blog owner for moderation so your attacks can proceed unimpeded”

    JC, Not at all, I visit this blog to provide an alternative view and do so with my eyes open. The only time I have voiced concern was when i was called a child abuser which I thought was a step too far. As you would have seen from this thread the abuse comes thick and fast and I generally respond with a winking smile.

    If Ele is happy about others being compared to Hitler that is her prerogative, she kindly drew the line at commenters being called child abusers but Hitler references may be fine.

    I also comment here to learn about what this community thinks on issues and I get very robust responses. What I have gleaned so far is that any organisation that expresses concern about animal welfare should be soundly abused and their funding cut.

    I also understand from Mr E that the response from the farming community currently is to have lots of publicity photos with farmers loving their livestock (which sounds a little icky given what Australians say about us), get SAFEs’s status as a charity revoked and complain to the Broadcasting Authority. I note nothing about making sure such abuse doesn’t occur again or set up any robust monitoring system.

    You are into strategies JC, and I admit that the strategy of spending heaps on PR and taking out the whistle blowers can be very effective…just a shame about the animals, eh?

  88. Dave Kennedy says:

    I do notice no one attacked Farmerbraun when he said (DEc2 7:30):
    “The dairy “farmers” though routinely and flagrantly flout the animal welfare code that is referenced at the top of this post.
    The fact is that ignoring the code is not just standard practice on most large dairy farms – in fact it is regarded as best practice.”

    Is he lying or misinformed?

  89. Name Withheld says:

    JC has skewered you good and proper, Mr Kennedy. Now you are just starting to thrash about with more and more bizarre claims.

    If Ele is happy about others being compared to Hitler that is her prerogative
    Where did Hitler enter the narrative and where has Ele expressed her happiness or otherwise about it?
    You’re just making shit up again.

    What I have gleaned so far is that any organisation that expresses concern about animal welfare should be soundly abused and their funding cut.
    If that is what you have “gleaned”, I suggest you lay off the “certain substances” for a while.
    Mind you, we have discussed your lack of comprehension skills before, haven’t we?

  90. JC says:

    “What I have gleaned so far””

    A fair summary of your own views but lacking the introductory paragraphs..

    “After pushing as hard as I could using every unethical tool at my disposal and being as repulsive as possible I finally elicited enough outraged comments to suit my agenda to demonise the entire farming community and those who do not agree with me and allow me to present a much better alternative of organic farming and farmers who are so much nicer than those disgusting people and their cruel industry.

    In my vast travels around the farming community interviewing thousands I have collected information to put on my blog, in posts on other fora, on thepodium and on the stump and to my adoring Green friends I will tell them “What I have gleaned so far” and introduce these types as anonymous.. “A farmers wife told me, a sheep farmer told me, a pig farmers cousin told me etc” and next time I will undoubtedly be elected because I’ve done the hard yards, faced the wrath of the Tories on their farms and endured their aggressive insults without a backward step.
    I am sure this will get me elected next time”.

    JC

  91. Name Withheld says:

    Great summary JC.
    Game set and match, I think.
    Thank you linesmen.
    Thank you ball boys.

  92. Dave Kennedy says:

    NW, I took Mr Es big brother image as Hitler as it fitted the rest of his narrative of attacking the messengers.

    And still no response to Farmerbraun’s statement that was far stronger than any of mine. I can’t believe the hypocrisy.

    I hope JC feels better after getting all of that bile and sarcasm out of his system…love you too JC.

    Some advice to you all, just take care when posting images around the net of you loving your animals, some things can be misconstrued 😉

  93. Name Withheld says:

    Some advice to you all,

    Not really wise of you to give advice, Mr Kennedy.
    You lack the erudition, fluency or wit to compete here. Particularly against an old newsgroup warrior.
    Mind you, you could be described as a _wit……..
    If only we could find the missing ‘t’.

  94. Mr E says:

    NW
    “You’re just making shit up again.”

    Nailed it!

    Disclaimer – I don’t endorse swearing on blogs.

  95. Dave Kennedy says:

    NW, I didn’t expect you to get it old warrior, I have noticed that your humour has a particular style that I remember from primary school days (as a pupil), I wrote it for my own amusement.

    And still no comment regarding Farmerbraun, I detect some desperate avoidance.

    I don’t think this thread is going anywhere, especially as the key questions are sitting unanswered (as usual) and has degraded into trading insults, myself included (apologies Ele). I have a carbon spewing flying contraption to catch early in the morning so I will leave you all to your private photo sessions with your animals and congratulating yourselves on avoiding saying anything of value 😉

  96. JC says:

    “Particularly against an old newsgroup warrior.”

    Then take not my advice but this observation..

    DK and formerly RG treat this blog as a newsgroup, not a blog and they apply asymmetric warfare against the blog and its posters.

    A blog of this type is a stately presentation of opinion from its owner and posters, a newsgroup is about mayhem that develops its own semblance of truths that may have little to do with reality and much about the pathologies of its posters.

    When DK posts here its to be a “concern troll” and to sow mayhem and remove reason from the so called debate.

    Only it isnt a debate to him, its chaos and high emotion to suit a political purpose.. thats newgroup or NGs for short. In the NG format he’s countered by a different way to a blog.

    By using an NG (lawless) format in a blog he gets responses bound by blog format and protocol.. the Alinski Rule No 4 “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” applies here.

    A classic example is to push for an extreme reaction till one player says something friendly such as (recently) Farmerbraun. This is seized on to punish the group as DKs newest and bestest friend till he says something wrong and then there will be the sorrowful expose of FB as a moral Cretan.

    For DK and co this isn’t a debate, its a grim political struggle to win at any cost for a small political party and its purpose is to destroy the 90% opposed to it by asymmetrical warfare. Here its to change the rules to allow it to win.

    You may not believe me so I invite you to look at a simple metric.. there maybe 20 posters here but a check of the comments sidebar will show DK and his ideas are 30-60% of the blog on any day. He owns the blog and he owns the debate.

    JC

  97. Mr E says:

    Well done JC and NW

    Your arguement was so compelling Dave even forgot about his objection to fossil fuel use and climate change.

  98. TraceyS says:

    “I am not predicting a rise of suicides because of my views, I am predicting an increase because the industry lacks forward thinking. When other farming sectors have had to deal with greater scrutiny regarding animal welfare the dairy industry should have expected the same to happen to it. If there was proper diligence done regarding monitoring of the treatment of bobby calves and slaughter houses then the videos could have never been made.

    There is a bullying culture…”

    No, Dave, there is a reality which you quite possibly don’t comprehend…

    “An official ban on sow stalls will not affect his business, a Dunedin pig farmer says, but a greater volume of imported pork already has“.

    Fifty-seven percent of pig meat consumed in New Zealand is imported and none of it has to meet our animal welfare standards. That’s what the consumers should be worried about.”

    There were ”robust” processes in place around pig farms now, Mr Carter said.

    ”All farmers have had to send a declaration saying that they are compliant [and] there is an audit programme on all our farms.”

    If you keep changing legislation … [people] will just use offshore products.

    Does Safe give a damn?

    “Safe head of campaigns Mandy Carter said in a statement the ban was the first step towards protection of sows.

    ”[Yesterday marked] the last day that pigs will ever have to suffer in the cruel crates, assuming farmers comply with the law.”

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/365722/single-stalls-pig-farms-banned

    Does anyone else find that statement just a little bit blinkered if not downright false?

    It will not be the “views” of vocal wannabe politicians which drive farmers to desperation but the ignorance of many.

  99. Mr E says:

    A question from observations.

    Only one calf had an ear tag, pictured inside a crate- not being abused.

    All other calves in the video were therefore likely destined for a petfood plant.

    The farmers – therefore suppliers of calves to that particular pet food company.

    How did SAFE know to target those farms and that petfood company?

    Is it possible they knew of the issue well before they reported it?

    Is it possible they delayed reporting it to gather evidence for an attack on the entire industry?

    I smell a rat and I suspect more will come from this story.

  100. Name Withheld says:

    Thank you JC for the succinct and accurate reminder of how much fun? newsgroups were before pesticide killed off most of the trolls. You may give our one a little too much credit. I doubt he has the intelligence or wit to form and carry through a coherent strategy.
    I see him more as a catherine wheel who starts quite brightly and then falls off the nail, spinning pathetically on his side showering ever diminishing sparks in all directions.

    I have a carbon spewing flying contraption to catch early in the morning
    Of course you have Mr Kennedy. Whenever the argument is lost you always have “A meeting to prepare for as chair” “library books to return” or an “early flight to catch”
    Mentioned purely to remind us all just how important and busy the life of a dynamic politician really is. Why else would you mention it?

    I image the contraption you have to catch”early’ in the morning is the
    6:50 to Wellington. Most of us on this blog will have had half a days work done by that time.
    You should try and get more sleep. Hunched over your monitor in the early morning hours (12:42am) is not healthy.

  101. Mr E says:

    “dynamic politician”?

  102. TraceyS says:

    Dynamic: dy·nam·ic (dī-năm′ĭk) adj:

    1. Of or relating to energy or to objects in motion.
    2. Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress.

    As an “object in motion”, consuming vast amounts of energy as it travels through a CO2-soaked atmosphere, a flying politician could safely be described as dynamic.

    The internal change-of-state required for the duration of the flight to one that accepts the necessity of fossil fuel travel, then reverts again to one which doesn’t, and then back to one which does – only for the duration of the flight home – certainly qualifies as continuous change (I’m less certain about progress though).

    Dynamic Dave inDeed!

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