Saturday soapbox

Saturday’s soapbox is yours to use as you will – within the bounds of decency and absence of defamation. You’re welcome to look back or forward, discuss issues of the moment, to pontificate, ponder or point us to something of interest, to educate, elucidate or entertain, amuse, bemuse or simply muse but not to abuse.
The ManKind Project's photo.

The kids who need the most love will ask for it in the most unloving of ways.

57 Responses to Saturday soapbox

  1. Andrei says:

    Perspective

    Like

  2. Dave Kennedy says:

    New Zealand is ranked 29th out of 30 countries in the OECD for child health and safety (below Mexico) and are also near the bottom for child poverty and youth unemployment. We also have the worst statistics for youth suicide. The CYFs report shockingly revealed the failings of the state to protect and care for our most vulnerable.

    Click to access 43570328.pdf


    https://nzfvc.org.nz/news/nz-children-rate-poorly-oecd-unicef-report
    http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/nz-youth-death-rates-among-worst–research-2012042511#axzz3rKKgqUun

    It appears that we just don’t love our kids enough 😦

    Like

  3. Andrei says:

    New Zealand is ranked 29th out of 30 countries in the OECD for child health and safety (below Mexico) and are also near the bottom for child poverty and youth unemployment.

    Planet Dave Kennedy is a different one from the real planet Earth

    Like

  4. Will Dwan says:

    Yes, New Zealand is indeed a toxic, festering wasteland, ravaged by hunger and despair. How my heart yearns for the clear skies of sunny Beijing, the peaceful prosperity and opportunities of countries like Mexico. Soon I shall join the thousands fleeing this blighted land, for a better life somewhere else. The OECD is based in Paris isn’t it? I hear they have some space opened up recently.

    Like

  5. Dave Kennedy says:

    Andrei, the post was about love, many communities may not be as wealthy as ours and may even have more abject poverty, but they many do better when it comes to loving their kids. Given the wealth our country has it is shameful that we are ranked so low against other developed economies.

    I have travelled enough to know about what people experience in less affluent economies and I often see a lot more love and happiness. The levels of domestic violence in New Zealand is probably worse than most other societies, rich and poor.

    Just read the report on CYFs and listen to Principal Youth Court Judge Becroft. We can’t even hold our heads up high compared to less developed nations.

    Will, you can’t judge what is happening in New Zealand Society just based on your own lens and experiences. have a talk to your local community health people, Salvation Army or one of your local police and learn about the New Zealand you obviously know little about.

    Decisions being made in New Zealand do not have ‘caring’ or ‘love’ as important provisions to be considered, these generally come in well below things like economics and protecting commercial interests.

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  6. Dave Kennedy says:

    Actually how can you ignore the thousands of young people who have been sexually abused while in the care of the state in NZ and attempt to take a higher moral stand point. You guys have no idea what you are talking about.

    And this abuse is being continued by this Government that even refuses to apologise to past victims. This is how cruel and callous our current Government is in denying some closure for past victims and allowing the same culture to continue. Appalling!
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/71388571/generation-of-children-brutalised-in-state-care-wont-get-public-apology

    Like

  7. andrei says:

    Dave Kennedy Politicians apologizing for things they were not responsible for, that happened often before they were born is hollow , and to my mind both hypocritical and offensive

    My own early childhood was traumatic, I don’t go into it, sometimes I talk about it with my siblings who in some cases experienced worse.

    But what we all know (i.e. the oldest of my siblings, the younger escaped the worst) is that the safest place for a child is with their Mother and Father, something which common sense and reason should make apparent.

    It is why I take the stance I do on the importance of marriage.

    Politicians can “apologize” for things that happened long ago until the cows come home – it wont change them and wont fix them

    We need to move forward

    My view if you want to reduce child abuse – strengthen marriage

    Start talking about how to do that and I’ll come on board

    Like

  8. Paranormal says:

    Absolutely Andrei. As soon as you mention the high prevalence of beneficiary households in the child abuse stats DK goes into emotional blackmail overdrive. It’s one thing to say we must ‘do something’ ™ about child abuse, but to ignore the evidence because it doesn’t suit your politics – is what?

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  9. JC says:

    Have a look for a bit of reminiscence and fun at a 3 min clip from “Blazing Saddles”.. one of the finest bits of satire about late 20th century attitudes.

    The Negro sheriff is about to be killed by his citizens when he whips out his gun, sticks it in his own neck and threatens to blow his head off. Straightaway he changes his status from hated “nigger” to victim of Whites and the crowd is on his side. We saw it brilliantly adapted by the lefty women in Parliament the other day. Gone was any concern for the deportees and in was the victim status and sad sack photo.

    The left and the media (but I repeat myself) happily dropped the losing argument and created reams on the rapist Key and his personal jihad on women and encouragement of child abuse… its all they have.

    Child abuse in NZ is like Mel Brooke’s satire.. the abusers and their spokesmen say “Give us more money or we’ll rape and kill even more of our kids” and the (modern) crowd says “Wont someone help these poor abusers?”

    And the sheriff’s final comment sums us up.

    JC

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  10. Dave Kennedy says:

    “My view if you want to reduce child abuse – strengthen marriage”
    Andrei I guess you mean using the likes of the old Marriage Guidance Council that became Relationships Aotearoa that the Government killed. I think that you are parttly right but what we have in New Zealand is a culture that doesn’t look after kids well.

    Sue Bradford’s section 59 amendment bill (called anti-smakcking) was an attempt to give children the rights as animals. People are still angry about this and want the right to whack their kids again and yet family violence is increasing, almost 102,000 police investigations in 2014, up 7% from 2013.
    http://areyouok.org.nz/family-violence/statistics/

    Research has shown that family violence increases when there are financial difficulties.

    Caring for kids isn’t well valued, mothers (especially beneficiaries) are expected to go out and work as soon as possible and put their children into care. A recent ERO review claims that many early childhood centres aren’t performing well and those that work in child care are often not paid well. When I was young in the 50s and 60s most children went home to a warm home and their mother, that is not so common any longer, stay at home mothers are considered economic burdens and irresponsible.

    50% of our children experience poverty at some stage in their childhood (lack of food, lacking items essential clothing, not have their own bed or substandard housing).

    I think there is more we need to do than just strengthen marriages.

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  11. Dave Kennedy says:

    I do note I am the only one producing evidence. Paranormal and JC I’m still waiting for your evidence to dispute mine and I find your arguments disgusting, JC, you really are quite ignorant.

    Like

  12. TraceyS says:

    Many years ago I helped a woman who had been in similar circumstances to Karla Jacinto – only for much, much longer than four years and not in Mexico but Australia. Back in NZ she endured further violence (although of a different form). Watching the video (posted by Andrei) aroused well-rested, but never forgotten, thoughts and feelings about her.

    Dave thinks New Zealand is a bad place for kids and that we “don’t love out kids enough”. For perspective, here are some stats:

    The rate of child prostitution by population in Australia is estimated to be 0.0166% (4,000 / 24,000,000). In Mexico it is 0.0164% (20,000 / 121,700,000) so according to these stats, about the same as Australia. In New Zealand it is estimated about 0.0045% (210 / 4,600,000). That’s about one-third the rate of either Mexico or Australia (but still too high, it should be zero).

    In Thailand, the worst country in the world for child prostitution, the rate is 1.19% (800,000 / 67,091,000).

    Dave, I really hope you will be able to appreciate how your morphing of a topic to suit your political agenda, as you so frequently do, distracts from getting to the heart of matters.

    I respectfully ask you to stop doing it. You have your own political platform over at your blog.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_of_children

    Like

  13. JC says:

    “I find your arguments disgusting, JC, you really are quite ignorant.”

    Of course you do.. it was written just for you.

    Mel Brookes, the likely Democrat was surely placed on this Earth to mercilessly skewer the ignorance, hypocrisy and sheer dumbness of both right and left.. he’s made the right laugh at itself for 40 years and the left in a state of righteous fury, enhanced victimhood and a burning desire to destroy the children of moderates and right wingers.

    Which of those 12 women were so offended by the Key rape lyrics that they got up in Parliament at the time to condemn them?

    JC

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  14. Andrei says:

    To be fair to Dave Tracey – this is an open thread

    To me it is pretty dumb though to post that NZ Kids are “worse off” than Mexican Kids immediately below the testimony of a young Mexican women who was prostituted as a child.

    Like

  15. TraceyS says:

    Fair enough Andrei. But I think he climbed, no crawled, over her in order to find a platform from which to criticise NZ Government and, if the discussion were to go on long enough, from which to pump his party’s policies.

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  16. Dave Kennedy says:

    Andrei, you actually don’t get it do you. Are you really trying to tell me 12 year old NZ girl that committed suicide as result of sexual abuse from a CYFs foster carer isn’t worthy of the same compassion.
    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/256435/cyf-admits-failing-12-year-old-girl

    You have no idea what is happening in NZ do you. You are probably also unaware of the female Chinese students attracted to NZ under misinformation then find they have to become prostitutes to survive.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10381389
    Tracey, how accurate are your figures? How many young women are operating under the radar as prostitutes that are not included in your statistics.

    You are looking at NZ through rose tinted glasses, there is an underbelly in this country that statistics reveal a little of (we are about the worst in OECD for care of children) but much is hidden because data is not collected well and our communities aren’t as integrated as they were, so you won’t see it.

    JC, your comments don’t even deserve a reply, they are so off the mark!

    Like

  17. Andrei says:

    Andrei, you actually don’t get it do you.

    Yes I do Dave Kennedy

    New Zealand is not a paradise, not the garden of Eden.

    Bad things happen here – it is the human condition, mankind’s fallen nature that is at work

    Unlike you I have little faith in Big Government solutions to these problems – in fact history suggests otherwise that misguided Government intrusion into these thing makes matters worse.

    Ultimately these are a spiritual and moral problems

    Like

  18. Name Withheld says:

    learn about the New Zealand you obviously know little about.
    JC, your comments don’t even deserve a reply, they are so off the mark!
    You guys have no idea what you are talking about.
    JC, you really are quite ignorant.
    Andrei, you actually don’t get it do you.
    You have no idea what is happening in NZ do you.

    As the argument is lost, so does the shrill abuse increase.
    A sure sign of narcissism, from a person who refuses to admit ignorance or error, who at the slightest hint of criticism resorts to a furious personal attack intended to advance his own moral and intellectual superiority.
    All this from a an (ex) small provincial town schoolteacher.
    Quite laughable really.

    Like

  19. Mr E says:

    Dave,

    You seem to condemn NZers based on your own silly nasty assessments.
    Eg

    “It appears that we just don’t love our kids enough :-(”
    “Caring for kids isn’t well valued, mothers (especially beneficiaries) are expected to go out and work as soon as possible and put their children into care.”
    “stay at home mothers are considered economic burdens and irresponsible.”

    Then you question the accuracy of figures provided by Tracey when the OECD report you reference is loaded with self doubt and accuracy questions.

    One of the OECD welfare measures is ‘bullying’. And here you are, making silly nasty condemning unqualified judgements.

    Like

  20. Dave Kennedy says:

    Mr E, as a nation we can’t hold our heads high regarding our treatment of children, you are attempting to defend the indefensible and can’t ignore all of my evidence.

    The problem with Tracey’s data is that information of activity that is unofficial, and much is criminal, it can never be truly representative of the reality. Even if we aren’t as bad as other countries, it is not an excuse for what does occur.

    You are accusing me of nastiness in trying to defend children whose lives are blighted by abuse…really?

    Like

  21. Mr E says:

    Dave,
    You appear to be deflecting from points I have made. You have claimed that “we just don’t love our kids enough”, “Caring for kids isn’t well valued” and “stay at home mothers are considered economic burdens and irresponsible”

    That is very very defensible. You have no evidence regarding the level of love parents provide or have. And you have no evidence regarding the level of value put on stay at home mothers.

    Furthermore it is worth questioning why you have excluded stay at home fathers from that point too?

    I think the points you have made are nasty. They are most certainly without basis.

    I can very much hold my head high regarding my parenting. I am sad that you struggle to do so.

    Like

  22. Dave Kennedy says:

    “You have no evidence regarding the level of love parents provide or have.”
    Mr E, I was referring to the love and care that children receive, not what the parents have within themselves that may not be well expressed. I recommend Celia Lashies’ ‘The Power of Mothers’ that explains why so many mothers fail their children. The love is there but the means to express it is limited by so many wider pressures and systemic failures.

    I would also make the claim that those children forced into state care are also deserving of love and yet the state has shortchanged them there considerably. Love may be a difficult term to apply to the state, but compassion is something that should drive decisions regarding children and families and this is sadly lacking.

    My links provide heaps of evidence to show that compassion, love and basic care is something too many of our children don’t experience to the extent they should.

    I also wonder what experience or contexts you draw from to make your judgments on my right to express my views. I have taught in a number of low decile communities, I’ve taught children in special classes who have experienced the worst levels of abuse and deprivation, I was one of the writers of our current IEP document that was informed by many working in the field of special education and regularly talk with the Salvation Army and a nurse involved in a leadership role in community health.

    What is your background or connections in this area?

    Like

  23. Dave Kennedy says:

    You are right to question my lack of inclusion of fathers as sole or stay at home parent (I have had this role myself on occasions). This was purely expedient, as although fathers are having a growing role as parents the vast majority who have the significant parenting role or are sole parents are women 85% of sole parents are female).

    Like

  24. TraceyS says:

    “Tracey, how accurate are your figures? How many young women are operating under the radar as prostitutes that are not included in your statistics.”

    And:

    “The problem with Tracey’s data is that information of activity that is unofficial, and much is criminal, it can never be truly representative of the reality. Even if we aren’t as bad as other countries, it is not an excuse for what does occur.”

    Was someone attempting to make excuses, Dave? Is that what you think I was doing by presenting data (aka “evidence”)? I will assume that’s not what you were suggesting because that’d be low indeed – especially given your criticism of others for not doing so.

    Regarding reporting; do you expect that the level of under reporting would be higher in New Zealand, or say, Thailand?

    Like

  25. TraceyS says:

    Besides, Dave, when did the topic become about young women prostitutes? The statistics I provided related only to children therefore I wouldn’t expect any figures at all to be included for adult prostitution.

    Child and adult prostitution are very different matters. Children don’t have a choice. Adults do. Especially in a country like New Zealand.

    Added to your failure to include men as solo fathers and stay-at-home Dads you also failed to include in your concerns young male prostitutes operating under the radar.

    One thing for sure is that if you leave out entire genders the picture will certainly be skewed.

    We would normally associate the term “pimp” with a male, but it is not always so:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11492582

    How a mother can do this I do not know. But I am absolutely certain that no one is responsible for the mother’s role but the mother herself. She did not need to do this. We must not make excuses for her.

    I don’t know how long her sentence is but hopefully long enough that she will have reached menopause before release.

    Like

  26. Dave Kennedy says:

    Oh dear, Tracey, I feel that you are claiming that because child prostituion isn’t so common in New Zealand then we’re OK but there are heaps of young girls being violated by those who should be caring for them. What difference does it make if money changes hands or doesn’t. It’s still despicable.

    “1 out of 3 girls may be sexually abused before she turns 16 years old. Most of this abuse (90%) will be done by someone she knows and 70% will involve genital contact.”

    http://helpauckland.org.nz/get-info/statistics

    How the hell can this be motivated by “a political agenda”, you really don’t get it.

    Like

  27. JC says:

    “How the hell can this be motivated by “a political agenda”, you really don’t get it.”

    Yeah, right.

    In about the only study worthwhile quoting the 35 year running Christchurch longitudinal study of over a 1000 kids born and followed all their lives we know its not one in three but 17% for girls and 3.4% boys, that only 5% involved actual or attempted penetration and this is definitely correlated to some (10-20%) later psychiatric disorder but “It is clear from these findings that exposure to CSA (child sexual abuse) is only one of many factors that act in combination to determine an individual’s longer-term vulnerability to adjustment problems in adolescence.”

    Similarly with physical punishment we find only 4% of the cohort were punished harshly and the rest either of no consequence or not at all.. the effects on the 4% were noticable but “In general, young people reporting high exposure to physical punishment tended to come from socially disadvantaged family backgrounds that were characterised by multiple sources of adversity that spanned parental divorce or separation, high levels of parental conflict, parental illicit drug usage, parental alcohol problems, parental criminality, depressed living standards and high levels of exposure to stressful life events.”

    There is of course plenty more.. false rape accusations are not some minor 2% problem but represent 15-50% of rape complaints at different times and places. DNA tests and multiple surveys in the US and plenty of police comments in NZ tell us that these are moral panics where there will be a run in Parlmerston Nth and the police hit the media complaining about the waste of police resources or a senior cop in Christchurch will tell us that nearly rape complaints made on Saturday night are quietly withdrawn several days later once everyone calms down and/or gets sober.

    So too with social surveys.. largely self selecting to get a result and in which the definitions of sexual abuse include smelly old Uncle Dan giving a beery kiss to his niece at the family getogether. For a child almost any physical contact from outside of the immediate family is unwanted but its hardly any form of sexual abuse.

    During the 2015 Rugby World Cup the media put out a survey that showed the majority of people weren’t interested in it or rugby generally. It turned out to a be a female Auckland professor who didn’t like rugby designed a survey and sent about a 100 copies to her students and some acquaintances and surprise!! they weren’t interested in rugby. Thats the level of much of the surveying done but it still ends up on the record and gets quoted forever more.

    So yeah, physical and sexual abuse is one of the most politically motivated activities in the country.. an absolutely essential item in the toolbox of politicians and wannabes on the left.

    Next thing you know in their insatiable drive to rule the world they’ll start a war on sugar or something.

    JC

    Like

  28. TraceyS says:

    “I feel that you are claiming…”

    Where? (please be specific)

    The only place you “feel” this claim is inside your head, Dave.

    Like

  29. Dave Kennedy says:

    JC, This is how you debate, I provide an argument with links to show my supporting evidence, you provide a counter argument with your links. You may indeed have a good argument that the extent of sexual abuse may not be as great as my sources claim, but you have to have real evidence of this.

    If you are saying that the sexual abuse help line that I linked to has a political agenda, then you have to explain why.

    You refer to a 35 year longitudinal from Christchurch and provide no link. I only know of the Dunedin one and couldn’t find the information you claimed. The link would be helpful.

    You do realize that there is also the research from a 3000 random sample from Otago University in 1993 that is the basis for the 1 in 3 women (actually 32%) figure that is often used.

    Click to access Prevalence%20of%20childhood%20sexual%20abuse%20experiences%20in%20a%20community%20sample%20of%20women.pdf

    Obviously since 1993 the figure may have changed, and possibly for the worst, now that the use of alcohol and drugs is more prevalent in younger people than it was.

    According to the latest police crime data, sexual offending has increased dramatically under this Government. for the 12 years up to 2008 the number of sexual offenses hovered around 2,200 to 2,700 a year, but since 2008 the number of offenses leapt up by 1,000 to 3,629 in 2014 (page 19 of the police report).

    Click to access crime-stats-fiscal-national-20140630.pdf

    Here is a detailed and well supported description of how the Government is also fudging our crime statistics.
    http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2014/10/crime-reporting-hides-reality.html

    I await your reply, with evidence to support your claims, with interest.

    Like

  30. TraceyS says:

    And I await your reply, Dave, with “evidence” no less.

    You are very quick to excuse yourself for someone who is so demanding of others.

    Like

  31. Dave Kennedy says:

    Tracey, perhaps you can tell me yourself in case I have misrepresented you. Why did you list the child prostitution statistics from different countries to show the recorded numbers are lower in NZ and not refer to our sexual abuse of young girls statistics?

    Like

  32. TraceyS says:

    I made no claim, merely presented information. I do not have to justify to you, or anyone else, the sharing of factual information in a plain and accurate manner.

    You made a claim about me based on your own feelings.

    Now back it up with “evidence” or retract it forthwith. It’s good enough for you to demand “evidence” so it’s good enough for me.

    Please be prepared to demonstrate to all your genuineness in engaging unhypocritically.

    Like

  33. Mr E says:

    “Mr E, I was referring to the love and care that children receive, not what the parents have within themselves that may not be well expressed”

    No you said “we just don’t love our kids enough” Should I presume you are flip flopping or backtracking. Sometimes it is ok to admit you are wrong.

    Regardless the point is moot. You can’t measure Love. If you could – you would be the first person to ever achieve it. I doubt you are up to the task.

    “The love is there but the means to express it is limited by so many wider pressures and systemic failures.”

    That iseems extent of the Greens mentality. They even rely on the Government to control their love expression. Very very sad politics. Do you actually hear the things you say?

    “My links provide heaps of evidence to show that compassion, love and basic care is something too many of our children don’t experience”

    Please provide one quote where Love has been challenged. I see no comments regarding love.

    “I also wonder what experience or contexts you draw from”

    You want my CV again. Again again….. It is in my mailbox. Pick it up anytime.

    “I have taught”
    “I’ve taught”
    “I was one of the writers”

    Cockadoodle doooooooo!
    None of these are ‘Love’ qualifications, an issue you are challenging.

    “You are right to question my lack of inclusion of fathers”

    We both agree it was sexist then? Good good.

    Like

  34. Dave Kennedy says:

    “we just don’t love our kids enough”
    Well we collectively don’t, otherwise CYFs would function better, our education system would shift special education support to Decile 1 schools (not Decile 10 schools) and so many of our children wouldn’t go to school without breakfast or lunch. We wouldn’t have such a a high sexual abuse and mortality rate for our children either.

    The Government should embody what the majority of voters want their tax money to provide and I’m not sure there is general acceptance that a $12 billion expenditure on motorways (most lacking robust cost benefit analysis) is the highest priority. A quality education system and health system is an expectation that seems to have wide support. It also makes sense that child health and welfare should be a priority too for those who really need it. The long term cost of damaged children as future damaged adults is a burden on our health and justice system (80% of our criminals and future prisoners come from this group). It is unlikely that a sexually abused child will become a well functioning contributor to society or our economy if they don’t have effective and timely support.

    I guess you have been following the revelations in the Education Select Committee where Catherine Delahunty has organised those who suffer from learning difficulties such as dyslexia to share their experiences of the support they have received. Shocking:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/73925417/dyslexic-students-pack-out-inquiry-to-send-message-to-mps
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/73657922/Systemic-barriers-holding-dyslexic-kids-back

    “submitters struck out at a lack of funding, training, and a “bottom of the cliff” attitude to education for those with different learning needs.”

    Because this is where the special education goes under this Government:http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8830344/Private-schools-snare-special-needs-cash

    Where is the compassion and the love?

    Mr E, you were the one who listed all your experience and qualifications for farming to me in an effort to establish my lack of qualification to comment on it and yet when I use the same approach regarding my background and experience with high needs children I get: “Cockadoodle doooooooo!” you are so hypocritical 😉

    And as for the accusation of sexism… what? against my own sex? Good grief!

    Again no facts, no argument other than misrepresentation.
    “They even rely on the Government to control their love expression.”

    I would be really interested on your explanation of what you mean here.

    Like

  35. Dave Kennedy says:

    “I made no claim, merely presented information. I do not have to justify to you, or anyone else…”

    Tracey, hat’s what I thought, no logical or justifiable purpose. An interesting debating style… and you accuse me of not being genuine…really?

    Like

  36. Dave Kennedy says:

    oops, “that”

    Like

  37. Mr E says:

    “you were the one who listed all your experience and qualifications for farming to me”

    Ummmm nope – I have conveyed some experiences – but I have never listed qualifications. It certainly seemed appropriate to convey experiences after you claimed I was a “drain layers assistant”.

    At any rate – the blog owner wants us to debate the topic, not the person so discussing qualifications is not considered appropriate here. So let’s not – OK?

    Definition

    Sexism
    “Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person’s sex or gender.”

    “You are right to question my lack of inclusion of fathers as sole or stay at home parent (I have had this role myself on occasions). This was purely expedient, as although fathers are having a growing role as parents the vast majority who have the significant parenting role or are sole parents are women 85% of sole parents are female).”

    Expedient
    “(of an action) convenient and practical although possibly improper or immoral.”

    What more needs said?

    And you have drifted off talking about your claims regarding love and your will to have some Government influence over love. I wonder why? Have you finally realised the silliness of your remarks?

    Like

  38. TraceyS says:

    And once again you demonstrate the argumentation style of a teenager.

    Perhaps consider why I do not feel obliged to justify anything to you. Could it be your tendency to fill in gaps with made up rubbish?

    I might feel more obligation to someone who exhibits the common decency of asking questions when they want clarification.

    But someone who treats gaps in their own understanding as an opportunity to fabricate untruths is not worth bothering with in my opinion.

    Like

  39. TraceyS says:

    “What more needs said?”

    Nothing, Mr E. What you say doesn’t matter. It’s apparently what you don’t say that really counts.

    “Have you finally realised the silliness of your remarks?”

    Dave doesn’t need to. You shouldn’t judge him by the silly comments he did say but instead by the intelligent things he did not say.

    Like

  40. Mr E says:

    Perhaps consider why I do not feel obliged to justify anything to you. Could it be your tendency to fill in gaps with made up rubbish?

    Is that the only reason Tracey?

    I reckon I could make a long list of discouragement.

    Like

  41. Mr E says:

    “Dave doesn’t need to. You shouldn’t judge him by the silly comments he did say but instead by the intelligent things he did not say.”

    The funny thing about Hope is – it can dwindle with time.

    Like

  42. Dave Kennedy says:

    Mr E and Tracey, Read through your own comments, you rarely add to the actual discussion but go for the personal attack and avoid any direct questions.

    Mr E you steadfastly refuse to explain what you meant by the Government controlling the Green’s love expression (a bizarre accusation).

    Tracey refuses to explain her intentions behind the child prostitute statistics while ignoring sexual abuse.

    You do not debate and you can’t stop making personal attacks and innuendo.

    To Mr E I am sexist and possibly improper and immoral (ignoring intent) and Tracey accuses me of arguing like a teenager. Neither of you are prepared to explain your wild accusations or reasons behind your random facts. Do you have mirrors handy 😉

    “Sometimes it is ok to admit you are wrong.”
    Great advice, and I do when it is clear that I am, but in this case I am on very firm ground regarding New Zealand’s treatment of children, the data, the reports and daily evidence in the media confirms it.

    Like

  43. Mr E says:

    Dave,

    Another illogical and erroneous rant from you.

    “Mr E you steadfastly refuse to explain what you meant”

    I have refused nothing and as far as I am aware, no “explain” requests have even been made.

    “To Mr E I am sexist and possibly improper and immoral (ignoring intent) ”

    What silly remarks. I think a number of remarks you made could have been sexist. That doesn’t mean you are sexist. And I have certainly not suggested you are ‘improper or immoral’. You claimed some of your remarks are expedient, as the definition says, “possibly improper or immoral.”

    I think you have gone well beyond ‘filling in gaps with rubbish’ and are now simply making up rubbish.

    How quickly ‘rooster crowing’ has become ‘crying like a baby’. That must be a record. 🙂

    Like

  44. Mr E says:

    Dave,

    You say “I am on very firm ground regarding New Zealand’s treatment of children”

    And regarding ‘our’ treatment of children you say – ““we just don’t love our kids enough”

    According to you.
    “reports and daily evidence in the media confirms it.”

    Yet none of your reports, or so called ‘evidence’ make claims about “love”. Only you.

    And your claim that you are on firm ground regarding this claim of love – well I think you are dreaming. You don’t seem to understand that love cannot be measured, so where this ‘firm ground’ comes from is unknown.

    Like

  45. Mr E says:

    For entertainment sake.

    Like

  46. Dave Kennedy says:

    You’re just being a pedant, Mr E, swap “love” for “compassion” or “caring” if you are making it such an issue.

    I have just got back from talking to Capt Perry Bray from the Salvation Army as I am setting up some meetings for our Heath Spokesperson, Kevin Hague around the gaps in mental health support. You guys (and Tracey) seem to have no understanding of the real world out there and what is happening to many families and children.

    I also had a meeting with an Indian student yesterday regarding the financial exploitation of foreign students. You don’t have to scratch far below the surface to find out there is another side to our beautiful country that is actually quite rotten. We live privileged lives, many do not.

    Your video isn’t even entertaining it is perpetuating a myth that has no substance. I dare you to listen to Prof David Berliner, one of the world’s most respected educationalists, talk about what is happening in the US and what is being introduced here.

    Like

  47. Mr E says:

    Dave,

    “You’re just being a pedant, Mr E”

    Not at all – this was in your second comment “Andrei, the post was about love”.

    You made the discussion about Love Dave, and you have claimed that “we just don’t love our kids enough”

    You might think that is an insignificant claim. I don’t. I think it is a serious and nasty unsubstantiated claim.

    I will take your down grading of this claim as a retraction. It would be nice to hear an apology to the public too, but I imagine that could be a ‘hell freezing over’ experience.

    Shame it has taken such a long time to get a retraction. It seemed wrong to me the moment you uttered such claims, and has taken many many comments to get to this point. Why does it take so long for some to admit defeat?

    “You guys (and Tracey) seem to have no understanding of the real world out there and what is happening to many families and children.”

    How have you concluded that? From talking to the Captain? No, I think you are making up even more utter Rubbish Dave. You seem to have gone well beyond filling in gaps. Really does make your Green Party values look like a joke doesn’t it?

    https://home.greens.org.nz/values

    Like

  48. Paranormal says:

    DK, with your involvement in cementing poor outcomes for students I’m surprised you continue to beat your drum.

    Yet another example being your demand above to continually transfer more and more resources to Decile 1 schools – who already receive the largest share of educational funding. We have a number of examples in my family of teachers failing family members through their arrogance. I have described here the trials of my cousin’s son who at the age of ten still cannot read – because the principals and teachers would not allow him access to the resources available to him. That you feel no shame for your role and continue to politicise this is telling.

    As for what’s happening in the US have a look at this: http://www.thelearnerfirst.com/

    As for expecting CYFs to be loving and compassionate, that’s the problem with government intervention. The government cannot take the place of a loving mother and father, no matter what your socialist paradigm believes.

    Like

  49. TraceyS says:

    “Tracey refuses to explain her intentions behind the child prostitute statistics while ignoring sexual abuse.”

    Where have I made such a refusal?

    What I wrote was:

    “Perhaps consider why I do not feel obliged to justify anything to you…I might feel more obligation to someone who exhibits the common decency of asking questions when they want clarification.”

    It was not a refusal. I was letting you know my terms of engagement. Just because you are prepared to stoop low and misrepresent doesn’t mean I have to oblige you.

    I will not validate your fantastical assumptions by countering them. But you had another option if you so chose; all you had to do was ask a question rather than make stuff up.

    Too hard for you eh?

    Like

  50. Dave Kennedy says:

    “Shame it has taken such a long time to get a retraction”
    Good lord, Mr E, you do love twisting words. You were fixated by the word love and couldn’t see how it was represented in my links. Just for you I suggested that perhaps compassion is a word that may work for you, but as far as I’m concerned it is a lack of love for kids that causes National to support policies that harm kids and a lack of love that makes the general culture for many in NZ put work before parenting.

    Tracey, I ask questions and get lectures from you that don’t contain answers. 😉

    Like

  51. Dave Kennedy says:

    Paranormal, try thinking about what causes parents not to give the love and support to their kids that they should and you will find the answers. If the state takes on the role of caring for kids then they need to take it seriously and provide the resources necessary to do it well. Look at what is spent on supporting vulnerable kids and what we are prepared to spend on keeping someone in prison ($99,000 a year) and you will see the stupidity of not spending money on kids when they are at the most vulnerable and the most receptive.

    Like

  52. Dave Kennedy says:

    Yet more failure to help our kids and even Paula Bennett admits things aren’t good: http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/290005/govt-working-on-kids'-homelessness-bennett

    “What the world needs now, is love sweet love….” And a little more compassion from this Government to provide far more social housing. As the demand increases, more are being sold off and only 100 or so have been built….shocking!

    Like

  53. Paranormal says:

    Perhaps you should start thinking about that as well DK.

    Why is it there are high levels of abuse, particularly the worst cases, coming out of beneficiary households?

    Your “poverty/inequality causes it” just doesn’t wash when you see the money poured into some of those dysfunctional homes. For example there were thousands of welfare dollars going into the Kahuis household every week.

    One of the easy things to fix immediately is to remove the perverse welfare incentives that encourage breeding for cash. In too many households children are seen as a revenue stream and not valued for being children.

    Like

  54. TraceyS says:

    Lesson for Dave:

    Money ≠ Love.

    Like

  55. Dave Kennedy says:

    Paranormal, money in itself is useless. Properly targeted funding for real support that allows families to be self sufficient and to sort out their problems is what is needed. Rather than an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff approach, more funding for interventions at the early stage and to help our most vulnerable children is what is needed. Money doesn’t equal love, it is the compassion behind the spending and the priorities that are set that is important.

    Why on earth should all our special education resources go to the most affluent schools and not the schools where the highest needs are? There is possibly enough money already in the budget but it is hitting the wrong targets.

    Like

  56. Paranormal says:

    DK when will you understand the state can’t/won’t, and will never be able to do compassion.

    As for ‘properly targeted funding’ – that is just political double speak for chucking more money at failure. If we stopped incentivising failure with the perverse incentives in the current structure, we will get less failure. It is that simple.

    Disingenuous as always when it comes to schooling and your politics of envy DK. Surely special education funding should follow the special needs children, not necessarily the lowest socio economic areas?

    Like

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