Evil will triumph if good do nothing

Speaking to Prime Minister John Key at Waitangi yesterday, Maori Council head Maanu Paul said the Maori Council was concerned Mr Key had indicated New Zealand would go to Iraq.

We are a bit concerned that you might be putting the principle of protection for Maori at risk as you participate in the global problems and want to be a ‘family’ with the United States and England and other people like that.”

Mr Key responded in his speech, saying he agreed New Zealand should not fight others’ wars – but he also did not believe it should stand aside in such a case.

He accused those on the left of being hypocrites, saying they did not believe New Zealand should intervene despite criticising him for failing to speak out on human rights enough when overseas. He said they had also criticised him for his apparent ambivalence on apartheid.

“So the very people who tell me their whole DNA is laced with human rights and standing up for people who can’t protect themselves tell me to look the other way when people are being beheaded by kids, burnt by kids and thrown off buildings. Well, sorry. Give me a break.

“New Zealand is not going to look the other way. We are not going to do silly things but we may join 60-odd countries around the world trying to protect people who can’t protect themselves.”

He said he had no intention of fighting Iraq’s war “but I’m not going to turn the other way when people are being persecuted and say as a leader that it’s other people’s problem.”

The evil without a conscience that disregards rules based democratic systems and commits atrocities as radical Muslims do is our problem.

As Edmund Burke said: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
John Key on ISIS

57 Responses to Evil will triumph if good do nothing

  1. Andrei says:

    We are being softened up to supply our young men as cannon fodder to the imperium to protect the resources they have stolen from the peoples of the Middle East and keep them from regaining control of them to use for their own benefit.

    If it is about “human rights” why aren’t we going after Saudi Arabia where women are flogged in public for driving a car and beheadings a an almost everyday occurrence?

  2. Mr G says:

    Sad, Ele, sad. Now you are pimping war on Key’s behalf.

    You could hardly fall lower than this.

  3. RBG says:

    Where’s the outrage from Key about the deaths of 43 students in Mexico? Or is it only atrocities that make it on to youtube that the PM feels the need to respond to?

  4. Mr G says:

    “people are being beheaded by kids”

    How often, Ele, have you been critical of left-wingers for using emotion over science?
    Time and time again, you’ve claimed that you and your right-wing buddies rely on science and reason over emotion, which your decry.
    And here we have your leader, using emotion to defend his argument and you are using it to broadcast and justify his position:
    Hypocrisy, hypocrisy, hypocrisy.

  5. Where were the ‘good people’ when Sec of State Hilary Clinton was supplying weapons to ISIS at Benghazi???

    Where were the ‘good people’ when US senator John McCain was supplying ISIS with weapons in Syria???

    https://r1016132.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/the-war-on-terrorism-and-the-road-to-ww3-pt1-todays-wars-are-fought-with-yesterdays-tactics/

    Huh???

    Huh???

  6. ben says:

    I’m glad to see the Government firm up its stand against this blight on the world. It poses a particularly interesting question especially with regard to homegrown supporters and sympathisers, ISIS stands for the eradication of the fundamentals of our societies civil and individual rights all in favour of a barbaric interpretation of Islam. Homegrown radicals seek all the protection of our system re freedom of religion and protection of rights in criminal process, yet stand for eradication of such rights. The social contract is founded on the idea that the state and individuals swap basic inalienable rights for playing by rules. Here we don’t have that and raises issues as to whether sedition, treason and prisoner of war considerations come into play

  7. I am from the right and I object to Key’s war because it is un-winable

    I do not advocate doing nothing

    I have an alternative strategy.

    Start by trying those senior US personnel who committed treason by arming the enemy

    Next you fly battalions of Iraqi troops to NZ. Train them to a professional standard for 6 months to a year (part of the training would involve the construction of our infrastructure – like what the Roman legions did when they weren’t fighting or fornicating)

    Rinse and repeat

    https://r1016132.wordpress.com/2014/12/26/operation-westwin-pt1-gsmeacsf-warning-order/

    If anyone has a better plan to achieve victory I would like to hear it

    Not holding my breath

  8. ben says:

    Initially my preference would be substantial intelligence gathering followed up with a targeted multi lateral cooardinated carpet bombing across ISIS controlled areas

  9. Mr G says:

    Key’s comments, echoed by Ele here in the Homepaddock, attract war-groupies like ben.

    It’s calculated and it’s ugly.

    Emotive declarations from the Prime Minister and broadcasting them here – ugly, ugly, ugly.

    I don’t advocate “doing nothing” or “turning the other way” – I suspect no one does, though Key is setting up that straw man so he can decry anyone who says, “But Mr Key. New Zealand doesn’t want to go to war in the Middle East”.

  10. Glass up the middle east you reckon Ben??? Would probably win the war, don’t know what Russia and China would say…

    Ben you talk of treason yet ignore the leaders of the West arming our enemies which is treason and ignorance of the highest order

  11. Mr G says:

    No one is advocating the “the good do nothing” – that’s a false position you are putting there, Ele.
    “So yes, something needs done to clean up their mess – but us joining their war, and having no control over it isn’t likely to help. Afghanistan showed how our soldiers were stuck between releasing Taleban to attack them again, or handing them over to US prisons in a move that risked war crimes charges against our troops for the subsequent torture within. Why put our troops in that situation again?

    Far better to provide humanitarian aid to those suffering, support diplomatic efforts, and leave the war to those who started this mess – and can take responsibility for their actions.”

    BUNJI @ The Standard

  12. JC says:

    Oooh Ele,

    Looks like you’ve stumbled into a meeting of the ISIS Fan Club.

    JC

  13. Mr G says:

    Idiotic, unhinged comment of the day from JC but with what Key is doing with his emotive stirring-up and Ele, with her irresponsible repeating of the hypocritical nonsense, what else should we expect from lightweights like JC.

  14. bennettleton says:

    Right so due to your interpretation of the actions of various administrations during the circumstances they were confronted with, ISIS is our own fault and we should just sit back watch atrocity and engage in some good old western guilt hand wringing

  15. Yeah JC, and Senator John McCain, Sec Hilary Clinton, and Pres Obama are ISIS’s biggest fans

  16. “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within” Marcus Tullius Cicero

    I never said anything about sitting back and doing nothing

    I’m talking about thinking outside the box to achieve victory because whatever we’re doing over there ain’t working

    https://r1016132.wordpress.com/2015/02/06/the-3rd-iraq-war-in-3-decades-pt1-sun-tzu-says-what-the-hell-do-i-know-i-only-wrote-the-art-of-war/

    RIDICULOUS!!!

  17. RBG says:

    ISIS are barbaric terrorists who need to be hunted down and brought to justice. So are Boko Haram. JC where is Key’s statement on New Zealand sending support to Nigeria?

  18. RBG says:

    Who voted that down? And WHY?

  19. RBG says:

    So are we to assume that you two who voted my comment down are Boko Haram supporters? Why will we help to fight some evil terrorists and ignore others? Why is the ‘family’ not helping Nigeria?

  20. JC says:

    “JC where is Key’s statement on New Zealand sending support to Nigeria?”

    We have not *yet* been asked, but meantime here is Key’s position which looks very much like a similar buildup to ISIS.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=142967

    You seem to think Key is simply posturing on ISIS rather than the clear requirement we have under various security agreements plus of course a major moral requirement.

    I don’t often agree with his politics but here arch Key critic Paul Buchanan lays it out for you..

    http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2015/02/media-link-to-the-point-on-nz-and-is/

    JC

  21. Ray says:

    Why is the ‘family’ not helping Nigeria?
    I am not sure if your question is meant to be serious or just a sarcastic dig at the current Government.
    I suspect the latter.
    The crisis you allude to has been solved by the left using a
    hashtag.

  22. RBG says:

    Thank you for the links JC, the Buchanan one spells out clearly why NZ is going to be joining the anti IS campaign. The point I am trying to make is why are only some evils challenged and others ignored? If Key wants to atone for his youthful indifference to human rights in South Africa, he could start by asking serious questions about human rights today in China or Mexico, for example. Ray, my question about Nigeria is real and your flippant response is an insult to the hundreds of people who have been murdered by Boko Haram.

  23. Ray says:

    your flippant response is an insult
    The flippancy lies entirely with Ms Obama and her ilk.
    Not me.

  24. Not being flippant here but how much is this going to cost financially???

    I only ask because Government seems to think $$$ comes out of thin air

    NZ$ 99,466,017,363 debt level

    http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/newzealand
    http://www.eudebtclock.org/

    That scares me more than a bunch of rag-tag murders

  25. JC says:

    “The point I am trying to make is why are only some evils challenged and others ignored?”

    Thats covered by Buchanan as well, at least obliquely. We have to concentrate on the worst cases where people are truly helpless in a failed state and real massacres are underway. The ME qualifies but not yet Nigeria which has a rich Christian South which is fighting back to some extent.. and of course France and other African nations are in there fighting against Boko Haram as well.

    As for human rights abuses in China, Russia etc.. well, they don’t meet Buchanan’s or the UN’s qualifications for much more than a polite scolding.

    JC

  26. Hmmm let’s do some sums

    Cost of flying Iraqi Battalions to NZ and training and feeding them $$$………. / Lives………

    https://r1016132.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/an-army-marches-on-its-stomach-nzdf-why-havent-you-ripped-those-golf-courses-up-yet/

    Versus the third Iraq war in 3 decades $$$……… / Lives………..

  27. RBG says:

    No Ray. Ms Obama’s hashtag campaign may have been ineffective, but at least she was sincere. Your ‘the crisis you allude to has been solved by the left using a hashtag’ comment was flippant, insulting and made a joke about a tragedy.

  28. RBG says:

    JC, thinking about the horrendous things going on in other parts of the world makes me very grateful to be living here in New Zealand. We argue about many issues, knowing that we are safe to disagree without being tortured or killed. Wishing everyone a peaceful and happy Waitangi Day.

  29. Here are a couple more reasons we should not rush off to war

    https://r1016132.wordpress.com/2015/02/07/snafu-4-star-us-admiral-warns-of-muslim-brotherhood-penetration-of-every-single-us-security-agency/

    That’s right when I say treason of the highest order!!!

    Or how about this

    https://r1016132.wordpress.com/2015/01/18/sabre-rattling-us-resolution-758-global-security-is-at-stake-prepare-for-nuclear-fallout/

    Muslim Brotherhood member pResident Obama now has the power to launch a unilateral nuclear first strike against Russia

    Sh*t’s getting out of hand!!!

  30. Dave Kennedy says:

    By jumping in with the US yet again for another badly managed and unwinnable war we are ignoring the atrocities that are occurring closer to our back door. The 30,000 West Papuans killed by the Indonesian military has been almost totally ignored by John Key’s Government. http://thediplomat.com/2014/01/the-human-tragedy-of-west-papua/

    We are defined by the battles that we chose to fight and the ones we ignore.

  31. Willdwan says:

    The Papuan situation is an insurrection, it’s not really our business. I’m not convinced a Papuan government would make better masters for the people than an Indonesian one. Indonesia will probably be a world power one day, maybe they should find a place within it.

    Isis is something else altogether, how we respond to that evil will define us as a civilisation. If we turn away, then I think we will know we truly are in terminal decline, as people like Andrei believe. If we make a stand, however futile, then there is still hope for us. I don’t expect you to understand this.

  32. Mr G says:

    “turn away”, Will?
    No one, bar John Key in his emotive propaganda speech, and his knee-jerky right-wing sycophantic followers, is saying, “turn away”. Repeating as often as you like will certainly concrete in your own prejudices, but won’t even begin to get close to the real situation. Why do you do that, you righties – make stuff up then argue as if “the other side” said it? nzblogger said: “I never said anything about sitting back and doing nothing” but that doesn’t penetrate through your prejudice at all. Still you say, “If we turn away…”, so perhaps it’s just you considering that choice? You are your own worst emery, perhaps?
    Hang on, ben is that! Ben the war-groupie has already sent NZ soldiers in to destroy the enemy. He and his ilk are the ones you should be fearing.

  33. Dave Kennedy says:

    Willdwan you obviously don’t understand the West Papuan situation at all. West Papuans are being raped and slaughtered so that Indonesia can access their minerals and the western world is turning a blind eye while worst atrocities than what IS is causing occurs on an almost daily basis. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1101/S00233/west-papua-2010-chronology-of-events.htm

  34. Mr G says:

    “enemy”, not emery. Ben has hatred and needs to be watched carefully. “Carpet bombing”, that’s ben.

  35. Mr G says:

    “It’s clear to all that ISIS are terrifyingly barbaric. But hawkish cliches and scare-mongering do not answer the obvious question: Will military intervention fix it?

    History says it will create an even bigger mess.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/65916914/andrea-vance-think-twice-before-joining-new-iraq-war

  36. Willdwan says:

    I still say it’s not our fight, it’s an Asian issue. Islam has been murdering and enslaving Westeners almost since it began. They are permanent enemies. Resisting Islam has become part of our identity.

    Gotta go…crops to sow.

  37. Dave Kennedy says:

    Good grief, Willdwan, you actually believe that?!!!!

  38. Mission: Train a foreign army in the middle of a war zone

    – what could go wrong???

    Still no word from ya Ben on the penetration of the US Govt by the Muslim Brotherhood of every US security branch

    The US has to clean house before they can be trusted as an ally and all those who are providing material support to the enemy are tried for treason

    As a side note the situation in West Papua is disturbing and news to me. The Lamestream media have done a good job covering that mess up

    Shame on all you journos!!!

  39. Willdwan says:

    Yes, I believe it, it is our history if you don’t blind yourself to it. When Papuans abandon their rebellion, Indonesia will back off, start mining and hopefully generate some jobs in the area. But Isis will have to be confronted eventually. Deal with them now, before they grow stronger.

  40. Deal with the traitors now!!!

    Not holding my breath

  41. Mr G says:

    “Resisting Islam has become part of our identity.”

    Our identity?

    Our? To whom are you referring, Will, when you write “our”?
    New Zealanders? Surely you jest?
    Resisting Islam hasn’t become part of my identity.
    Resisting stupidity and prejudice has though.

  42. Mr G says:

    Here’s a must-read for everyone – from The Standard, yes, but very interesting for any person wondering how we became part of “the club” or “the family” and why Key says we are.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/the-war-club-family%EF%BB%BF/

    Murray Rawshark comments:
    “I see this as a very dangerous development, where we’ll be fodder for fading British dreams of grandeur and delusions of American exceptionalism. Under Kirk and Clark, we began to learn to stand on our own feet. Key has us back on all fours, sucking on whatever comes near our mouth.” – his expression is a but colourful, but he’s got it right, surely you agree with that 🙂

  43. Dave Kennedy says:

    “When Papuans abandon their rebellion, Indonesia will back off”
    Willdwan, I haven’t read such appalling ignorance for a while. How about reading the reality behind the treatment of West Papuans:
    http://www.smh.com.au/world/west-papuans-tortured-terrorised-20131006-2v2ae.html
    http://pacific.scoop.co.nz/2011/11/indonesian-commandos-terrorise-villagers-in-fresh-west-papua-brutality/
    http://unitingworld.org.au/blogs/west-papuan-students-beaten-and-tortured/

    It is absolute ignorance like yours that has allowed these atrocities to continue!

  44. Willdwan says:

    Spare me the links Dave, they don’t interest me. I do not pay taxes to support insurrections in obscure Pacific shit-holes. Defending the great civilisation I belong to does get my support.

    Robert, the neo-marxist worldview you share with the hard left is why you are so conflicted with western identity. It’s why you’re all so angry and discontented, you don’t really belong. You have my sympathy.

  45. Dave Kennedy says:

    At least by not reading the links you can keep your ignorance and prejudices intact. It isn’t about ‘neo-marxism’ or the ‘hard left’, Willdwan, it’s all about human justice and fair treatment. But I guess Melanesian people have no value in your odd world view (they just exist in “obscure Pacific shitholes”). I don’t normally get upset about comments here, but your rigid mindset and callousness in this case is quite something! The links I provided have a variety of sources and your refusal to read them is actually a little sad as I’d be happy to read anything you have that provides a different view of the West Papuan situation.

  46. Paranormal says:

    Mr G “Under Kirk and Clark, we began to learn to stand on our own feet”.

    How quickly the left forget the failings of their heroes. Remind us again why it was Clarkula sent the SAS to put their lives on the line in Afghanistan? Oh thats right it was to save face after her appalling gaffe she made publicly commenting on another country’s internal politics.

    But then again that sort of unethical behaviour is ok for you on the left isn’t it.

  47. Andrei says:

    I have been refraining but even the title of this post “Evil will triumph if good do nothing” demonstrates the sheer hubris of the provincial western mind

    For goodness sakes the USA has been bombing the Middle East for years and the West has been usurping its resources for their own use while the people live in poverty and the ruins of their countries.

    Now they are flooding the region with arms which makes civil order impossible which is their intention in Syria because they do not care for the legitimate leader of that Nation so the arseholes have destroyed it – this is the evil!!!!!!

    Gaddafi died by having a knife shoved up his arse after his Nation, once the most prosperous on the African continent, had been bombed into ruins and anarchy.

    Seven sovereign nations have been bombed bo Barack Obama alone because the USA has the divine right to bomb whoever stands in the way of their commercial interests.

    You people are exceptionally dumb if you think people who have had their nations destroyed under American bombardment and by American malefeasance don’t loath the West, they have every reason to because it is actually loathsome.

  48. Mr G says:

    Rein in that anger, Para – it’ll send you insane!
    Will, good effort, your faux “red-neck” act is almost convincing! Andrei’s got his head screwed-on right – no wonder he’s furious with the war-porn being expressed here.

  49. Dave Kennedy says:

    You are generally right, Andrei, with that level of interference from the US, there is no way that moderate leaders can emerge in the region with any real support.

    Let’s not forget the terrible damage being done by the highly unethical drone attacks, where in many regions the US is playing god regarding who they should kill and many are innocent families and children are dying. A total of almost 3,000 people have been killed by US drones in Pakistan (around 200 children) and the US isn’t even at war with this nation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Pakistan

    Over 400 have been killed by US drones in Yemen and 8 of them children.
    http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2015/01/30/analysis-death-toll-drone-strikes-yemen-crisis-what-next/

    We appear to be demonising IS for a handfull of beheadings when thousands of people are being killed in other regions in equally horrific circumstances by the US. Unless being killed by a drone by someone sitting by a computer screen is somehow more ethical than the hands on process. I think the beheadings are appalling but we shouldn’t lose perspective about what is really happening and we if we are going to intervene in any abuses of human rights and widespread cruelty, why are we not first looking closer to home. The West Papuans desperately need our support.

  50. Dave Kennedy says:

    The Iraq people have gained little through the US led invasion under false pretenses (WMD). Whereas Dick Cheney’s Halliburton made almost $40 billion from the war and Cheney is still claiming that the use of torture was justified.

    http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/308-12/16561-focus-cheneys-halliburton-made-395-billion-on-iraq-war

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/dick-cheney-defends-the-torture-innocents/383741/

    In the above interview Cheney claims that ignoring international law is fine when defending the interests of the United states and he was comfortable with the fact that at least 25% of those tortured were innocent:

    “Is that too high? You’re okay with that margin for error?”

    DICK CHENEY:

    “I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective.”

    There must be many innocent, peaceful Arab people who truly fear the US and their aggressive involvement in world affairs and few who have not had someone they know harmed by US activity. It is also this kind of environment that breeds hatred and terrorism for the west.

    http://www.salon.com/2014/12/09/10_appalling_findings_in_the_senates_torture_report/

  51. Paranormal says:

    Sooo DK, you’re happy for NZ to ignore our duties set out in the Responsibility to Protect international doctrine as agreed by the 2005 UN World Summit? That would be the one signed up to by Liarbour supported by the Greens.

    Interesting Mr G, you suggest that someone is angry when they point out those on the lefts hypocrisy. Why would that be? How could it be you are resorting to an emotional response that you accuse others of?

  52. I’m a ‘right-winger’ and I object to sending our troops to train a foreign army in the middle of a warzone. Any of ya’s heard of IED’s, snipers, blue on green???

    To win an irregular war you have to out G the guerrilla

    Like I posted earlier bring Iraqi Battalions to NZ, train them to a professional standard, send them back, rinse and repeat

    All those who have advocated sending our troops but have ignored, or put in the too inconvenient or too hard basket the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood have infiltrated all the US security agencies (there are at least 16) are RIDICULOUS!!! The implications of this alone are frightening and our troops deserve better than that garbage!!!

  53. Dave Kennedy says:

    “ignore our duties set out in the Responsibility to Protect international doctrine as agreed by the 2005 UN World Summit?”

    I think you will have to specify what these duties are and how refusing to join a war against IS stops us from fulfilling our responsibilities, Paranormal. I don’t think you know what you are talking about.

  54. Paranormal says:

    DK, have aread of JC’s comment above for a start. Do try to keep up.

    “At the 2005 World Summit, UN member states included R2P in the Outcome Document agreeing to Paragraphs 138 and 139. These paragraphs gave final language to the scope of R2P. It applies to the four mass atrocities crimes only. It also identifies to whom the R2P protocol applies; i.e., nations first, and regional and international communities second. Paragraphs 138 and 139 state:

    138. Each individual State has the responsibility to protect its populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. This responsibility entails the prevention of such crimes, including their incitement, through appropriate and necessary means. We accept that responsibility and will act in accordance with it. The international community should, as appropriate, encourage and help States to exercise this responsibility and support the United Nations in establishing an early warning capability.

    139. The international community, through the United Nations, also has the responsibility to use appropriate diplomatic, humanitarian and other peaceful means, in accordance with Chapters VI and VIII of the Charter, to help protect populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. In this context, we are prepared to take collective action, in a timely and decisive manner, through the Security Council, in accordance with the Charter, including Chapter VII, on a case-by-case basis and in cooperation with relevant regional organizations as appropriate, should peaceful means be inadequate and national authorities manifestly fail to protect their populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity…..”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect

    You Greens love collective action, how come when it is possible it could happen here all of a sudden you’re agin it?

  55. Paranormal proves my point by putting high treason (Senior US personnel arming the enemy) in the too hard basket

  56. Andrei says:

    Paranormal proves my point by putting high treason (Senior US personnel arming the enemy) in the too hard basket

    Its not “treason” it is part of the standard modus operandi of the USA

    See they put arms into the hands of pathological elements in a country they want to destroy.

    Then when the legitimate Government of that country tries to contain the mayhem they have engendered that government is demonized and the pathological elements are described as “pro democracy demonstrators” and so forth and the attempts to restore order are described as oppression

    For example in Yugoslavia ex East German army kalashnikovs where taken to northern Albania from whence they found there way to Kosovo and into the hands of the KLA (which even USA at one time considered terrorists)

    When poor old Slobodan Milošević tried to contain the violence that ensued he was demonized and eventually a “humanitarian intervention” was ordered which consisted of bombing rump Yugoslavia for forty days and nights making sure that all vital infrastructure and productive industry was destroyed e.g. the Yugo Car plant and employer of 10,000 people was reduced to rubble

    In true Orwellian fashion this operation was called “Merciful Angel” – you cannot make this shit up.

    Ukraine is getting the treatment now, as is Syria.

    This is the evil we must confront, those of us who are not sheep are fully aware ISIS is actually an American creation designed to create chaos and death which the “good” will have to sort out

    Here’s a blast from the past Richard Holbrooke the USA’s “envoy” to the Balkans with a KLA terrorist (note the East German Kalashnikov)

    Of course Kosovo is now occupied by NATO troops and will be for the foreseeable future and Yugoslavia is no more, mission accomplished

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