14 Responses to The engagement is announced . . .

  1. Rob Hosking says:

    Well I suppose asking permission of the father is no more antiquated than the whole royal thing….


  2. Andrei says:

    Let’s pass quickly pass:

    “Prince William has also sought the permission of Miss Middleton’s father.”

    because the ideas that go with that don’t belong in the 21st century.

    Perhaps they should


  3. homepaddock says:

    Rob – royalty is a consitutional matter, the idea that a woman needs anyone’s permission to marry is about attitudes though both may be regarded as anachronisms.

    Andrei – seeking the blessing of family would, for most of us, be a good thing.

    The idea that a man needs permission to marry another man’s daughter is from another time when mothers and daughters were regarded as lesser beings.


  4. gravedodger says:

    I am sure there would have been no thought of what you suggest Ele but to me it was a quaint nod to tradition however outmoded.
    I just wish them both well as they seem to have built a relationship without the court pressure that came so disasterously on HRH Prince of Wales to find a suitable woman to breed an heir for the succession.
    Disregarding the potential for disaster by going outside “Royalty” for the vessel to breed the heir I am in favour of bringing “new blood” to “the family” and Queen Catherine from Leeds has more relevance than another distant relative of the Elector of Hanover, with all the potential for trouble from “in breeding” that the farmer in me fears. BTW there is a difference between Line Breeding and In Breeding.
    I wish Kate and Wills every happiness as the make their life in the goldfish bowl, it will not be easy.
    I wonder how long before some researcher finds a tenuous link to some ancient Royal who cast his seed somewhere in history of the Middleton Family Tree.


  5. Deborah says:

    Well said, Ele.


  6. homepaddock says:

    GD – rather than nodding to tradition bring it to the 21st century by both the man and owman seeking the blessing of both parents.

    When we married nearly 30 years ago I didn’t even contemplate being “given away” but our parents were asked to give their blessing during the service.

    I’m a marriage celebrant and amazed how many women still choose to be “given away”.

    As to your other point – the introduction of hybrid vigour usually works for stock.


  7. Andrei says:

    The idea that a man needs permission to marry another man’s daughter is from another time when mothers and daughters were regarded as lesser beings.

    That’s a feminist narrative but not correct.

    In wiser times and places it was understood by people of breeding the most important task was raising the next generation, which requires the input of a man and a woman.

    Creating suitable matches was an important matter of ritual and decorum. School formals are one vestige of these rituals though judging by the ones my kids attended somewhat degraded in their form.

    Those with no class just went ahead and did it anyway without the fence of ritual and produced the underclasses just as it is with us today.

    The ruling classes have for the most part adopted the mores of the underclasses but largely artificially circumvent the reproductive aspects.

    An innovation which is just beginning to show its disastrous consequences as the population ages without having produced its successors.


  8. homepaddock says:

    I accept the importance of raising the next generation.

    But as to the rest of your explanation – why only the man asking permissin of the woman’s father – not both the man and woman asking permission of both mothers and both fathers?


  9. Andrei says:

    The boy did ask permission of his father.

    And in this case the Queen’s permission was sought.


  10. pmofnz says:

    Wonder what odds iPredict will give on a future divorce? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? She will have done her job by then.


  11. homepaddock says:

    Andrei – but not his or her mother.

    The Queen was asked not as a grandmother but as Queen.

    PM – if I gave out prizes for cynicism that comment would win it.


  12. Andrei says:

    Nothing exists in a vacuum Ele.

    Brideknapping was a common occurrence where a woman was taken with or without her consent and married to the groom. Actually in parts of the world it still is.

    The Church was against this and this is why in Church weddings the first thing that happens is the bride is asked “do you of your own free will consent to marry n” or words to that effect. The groom is also asked because the Church promoted marriage as forming consensual bond between the two – a significant advance on what occurred before and not always to this very day true.

    I think and you will know that civil ceremonies also require a paraphrase that question.

    Actually honeymoons are a relic of this type of marriage where the newly wedded couple would go to earth where they couldn’t be found until after the marriage was consummated and it was deemed to be too late to stop it.

    And the best defense a girl could have against this sort of marriage would be a strong father and brothers.

    And if a male wanted to court such a protected girl he would need ……….?


  13. david winter says:

    Wow Andrei, you’ve almost made it sound like those ideas “don’t belong in the 21st century.”…


  14. George says:

    I asked my wife’s parents for their permission to marry their daughter. I think it’s just called manners. Quaint eh!

    Perhaps it doesn’t belong in your 21st century but it does in mine


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