Red + Green poisonous mix

Wee parties generally do worse after they’ve been in coalition with a bigger one here, but in Australia the Green Party has tainted Labor.

An alliance with the Greens could be fatal for the already-struggling Labour Party, a leading Australian commentator warns.

The Australian’s chief opinion editor Nick Cater, who visited New Zealand this week to promote his book The Lucky Culture, warns an alliance with the Greens has been disastrous for Australia’s Labor Party, as socially-conservative middle and working class voters have abandoned their traditional support.

Of the Greens, he says: “They are absolutists and are rigid about man’s role in the environment and on earning a living.” . . *

Labour will almost certainly need Green Party support in some form, whether it’s as a coalition partner or just an agreement on confidence and supply, if it’s to form a government.

The bigger party is doing its best to sabotage itself with its internal woes and it’s being further undermined by its potential partner.

The radical left agenda of the Greens scares many moderate voters.

Labour couldn’t govern without them but fear of what would happen if it tried to govern with them is scaring voters who think rightly think Green + red would be a poisonous mix.

* Today’s NBR print edition has more on this.

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71 Responses to Red + Green poisonous mix

  1. robertguyton says:

    The NBR – what a joke!

    Some scaremongers like to say that the NZ Greens have a radical left agenda. You are one of those, Ele.

  2. Paranormal says:

    Wed Wussel and his shills (is that you RG?) keep proving Ele correct.

    Greens complain about the Watermelon name but it continues to appear appropriate.

    You can also look to the international Green movement with the likes of Greenpeace founders complaining about the hard left agenda etc.

  3. Andrei says:

    Not only do they have a radical left agenda, Robert Guyton, but they are crazies as well.

  4. Captain Fantastic says:

    I agree. The Greens & the Green types have picked up the Luddite mantle from the past. They want to lock the world into a warped moment in time. They think that they know all the answers, no one else knows anything. The mind of a green is closed. They see themselves as some sort of messiah. I guess thats correct. Thats it.The Greens have a messianic complex. ( Is that why they grow beards and wear sandals ?) Tumbled all together, they are accomplished bullies, worse so when they get power. They crave power. Look at the reputation of Environment Councils where these types get power.
    The Modern world hasn’t done too bad. Look at life expectancies. Modern technology has delivered. It will only get better. But only so long as Greens stay at home minding their own business. Or better still, convert to rational thinking.

  5. robertguyton says:

    Like bugs splattered on a windscreen, out come the anti-green scaremongers and chicken-littles. Ele certainly knows how to dog-whistle you bitter old snipes. What bilious tripe you spout. What baseless, information-free pabulum you trowel-on like spoiled cream.You say nothing in your content-free posts and reveal the cigarette-paper-thin depth of your argument. If you are examples of the intellectual opposition the Greens are up against, they’ll win in a landslide.

  6. TraceyS says:

    If all that you say is true, Robert, why are you so annoyed?

  7. Viv K says:

    You might be a bit hacked off Tracey after people have called you crazy, luddites, bullies and more. That’s all rubbish, of course, and name calling doesn’t really matter, but sometimes it grates & people feel like snapping back as Robert has done.
    I’m not surprised that the Australian or NBR dislike the Greens, they are right wing publications whose main focus is promoting neo con right wing agendas. As the detrimental environmental effects of business as usual become blatantly obvious to the public, I expect the right wing press (Ele included) will become even more shrill and nastier.

  8. robertguyton says:

    Once again, Viv is correct. I’ve not snapped back though, merely matched like to like (though I believe I did it better – I like to use words to their best – or worst – possible effect). I’m very surprised at Ele. She is quite comfortable to portray the Greens as ‘poisoness’, but I’m certain she would bridle at anyone calling her beloved National Party, say, corrosive or some such. It seems an odd aspect of her personality. Clots like Andrei, Paranormal and Captain Fantastic can say what they like, I care not one whit, but it’s bell-ringingly obvious that the level of their commentary is somewhere around the level of some butt-clogged, hoick-stained gutter. Ele though, should know better.

  9. Andrei says:

    You know Viv, I’ll bet you have a refrigerator and no doubt you appreciate how it keeps your food fresh helps keep it from making you sick.

    And I’ll also bet you don’t have any idea how that refrigerator was made and how it was built at a price such that you could afford to buy it,

    And this is what really gets to me about the greens they use and enjoy all the blessings of modern industrial civilization while spitting at all the people and things that go into making it work and even worse prevent them from spreading these benefits and blessings to those who don’t enjoy them in other parts of the world.

  10. TraceyS says:

    The last name Robert called me was “stupid”. And I have never resorted to name calling myself so that was hardly retribution. He often punctuates arguments here with name-calling as a form of intimidation.

    Look at his blog Viv. There’s “rubbish” there too, right?

    If Robert wants intelligent discussion then he should engage in it without exception and refrain from resorting to name-calling whenever pushed to the point of frustration.

  11. TraceyS says:

    Snapped or not, it is clear that something was eating at you for you came across as more bitter than those whom you were criticising. I don’t think it was the names – you should be able to handle that. Perhaps, given your political disposition, it was not the suggestion of the Greens being toxic to Labour, but the other way around?

  12. robertguyton says:

    What bullshit – the Greens don’t spit at people. Typical emotional clap-trap from you, Andrei.

  13. robertguyton says:

    You are completely wrong, Tracey. I’m not bitter about anything. I see stupid comments coming in from a low place, and match them for effect. How lacking is a comment that ‘the mind of a Green is closed’? How childish to call the Green co-leader “Wed Wussel”?
    Good grief, did they expect to be greeted with admiration? Where’s the substantive backing to their claims? Nothing. Curmudgeonly quacking, that’s all.

  14. robertguyton says:

    Intelligent discussion? On a post that paints the party I support, “poisonous”? Faint hope. Andrei, talking about refrigerators, Paranormal, with his affected lisp, Fantastic and his sly implication that Greens are irrational – what pish! And you Tracey, what have you contributed? Ele’s employed ‘hit and run’ as is her style now. Ho hum.

  15. Andrei says:

    You don’t quite grasp the concept of metaphors do you Robert?

    OK

    Be kind and tender to the Frog,
    And do not call him names,
    As ‘Slimy skin,’ or ‘Polly-wog,’
    Or likewise ‘Ugly James,’
    Or ‘Gap-a-grin,’ or ‘Toad-gone-wrong,’
    Or ‘Bill Bandy-knees':
    The Frog is justly sensitive
    To epithets like these.

    No animal will more repay
    A treatment kind and fair;
    At least so lonely people say
    Who keep a frog (and, by the way,
    They are extremely rare).

  16. TraceyS says:

    If the discussion doesn’t meet your standards for intelligent, then don’t comment. It’s your choice.

    I can’t believe you have problem with the post considering how you trash the National Party. Are the requirements for respectful behaviour different depending on your political preference?

  17. TraceyS says:

    “When a Tory’s caught out, the usual defense is belligerent bullying, as our Prime Minister increasingly demonstrates.”

    “He’s not so versed in jibing and smart-arsing as Key is…”

    You may recognise your own “stupid comments coming in from a low place”, Robert.

    Learn to take what you give. Ele’s post was polite your by comparison.

  18. robertguyton says:

    Excellent!
    I’ve kept frogs since I was a little boy.

  19. robertguyton says:

    No. Ele shouldn’t play so loose with harsh epithets as me. She’s got a reputation to maintain. She’s spoiling it. It’s sad to watch.

  20. robertguyton says:

    I’m not ‘taking’ anything, Tracey. I’m concerned at Ele’s slide into cheap-shots. I’ve no qualms about talking that way myself, but in Ele, it’s unseemly.

  21. robertguyton says:

    My comments, as quoted by you, are demonstrably true. Like me to provide evidence?
    Those of commenters here today, aren’t, at least not one of you has done so, especially you, Tracey. That’s the difference.

  22. TraceyS says:

    Aren’t you an elected member?

  23. TraceyS says:

    There’s something very disconcerting about you Robert that is difficult to sum up. I think it is your propensity to tell others what they should think, say, and do. As if you have any authority.

    This alone is enough evidence for some of the comments made here.

  24. Mr E says:

    Dear Ele,
    I have a suggestion national party policy that I would like to see delivered to the highest level.
    I like to call it the mental gas policy. (Cross between mental health and green house gas)
    To reduce our dependence on non renewable resources and improve mental health we should … Dig at the greens.
    Cost. Small amount of time.
    Benefits. Improved state of mental health, happiness. Reduced dependence on non renewable resources.
    Eg. I planned to fishing this weekend to take a break, stress relief you could call it. I read this blog and spent about 10 minutes laughing/smiling. Moreover fishing is now a waste of time. Plenty of fish appear to have swallowed hook line and sinker. The boat can stay parked and fuel resources buried.
    I know NZers will see the as a good policy.
    Yours dearly
    Mr E

  25. robertguyton says:

    You are quite right, Tracey, there is and your guess is accurate. And I do act as if I have the authority. This is what you find so disconcerting.

  26. Freddy says:

    Were they kept as free range frogs Robert??…free to roam were they?
    Not kept in a cage I trust!!…or a shoe box?..heaven forbid!!

  27. robertguyton says:

    I’ve free-range ones now, Freddy, but when I was a boy and didn’t know better, I kept them in a purpose-made terrarium. At night they would croak and that’s a startling noise, in a boy’s bedroom.

  28. JC says:

    Indeed you are authoritive.. here’s the Green list of things to ban as of 2008, it’ll be a much longer list now”

    Ban fizzy drinks from schools
    Ban fuel inefficient vehicles
    Ban all gaming machines in pubs
    Ban the GCSB
    Ban violent TV programmes until after 10 pm
    Ban feeding of antibiotics to animals that are not sick
    Ban companies that do not comply with a Code of Corporate Responsibility
    Ban ACC from investing in enterprises that provide products or services that significantly increase rates of injury or illness or otherwise have significant adverse social or environmental effects
    Ban commercial Genetic Engineering trials
    Ban field testing on production of GE food
    Ban import of GE food
    Ban Urban Sprawl
    Ban non citizens/residents from owning land
    Ban further corporate farming
    Ban sale of high country farms to NZers who do not live in NZ at least 185 days a year
    Ban the transport by sea of farm animals, for more than 24 hours
    Ban crates for sows
    Ban battery cages for hens
    Ban factory farming of animals
    Ban the use of mechanically recovered meat in the food chain
    Ban the use of the ground-up remains of sheep and cows as stock feed
    Ban animal testing where animals suffer, even if of benefit to humans
    Ban cloning of animals
    Ban use of animals in GE
    Ban GE animal food
    Ban docking of dogs tails
    Ban intrusive animal experimentation as a teaching method in all educational institutions
    Ban smacking
    Ban advertising during children’s programmes
    Ban alcohol advertising on TV and radio
    Ban coal mining
    Ban the export of indigenous logs and chips
    Ban the use of bio-accumulative and persistent poisons
    Ban the establishment of mustelid farms
    Ban new exploration, prospecting and mining on conservation land and reserves
    Ban mining activities when rare and endemic species are found to present on the mining site
    Ban the trading conservation land for other land to facilitate extractive activities on.
    Ban the further holding of marine mammals in captivity except as part of an approved threatened species recovery strategy
    Ban the direct to consumer advertising of pharmaceuticals
    Ban sale of chips and lollies on school property
    Ban any additional use of coal for energy
    Ban fixed electricity charges
    Ban further large hydro plants
    Ban nuclear power
    Ban further thermal generation
    Ban private water management
    Ban imported vehicles over seven years old
    Ban the disposal of recyclable materials at landfills
    Ban the export of hazardous waste to non OECD countries
    Ban funding of health services by companies that sell unhealthy food (so McDonalds could not fund services for young cancer sufferers)
    Ban healthcare organizations from selling unhealthy food or drink
    Ban advertising of unhealthy food until after 8.30 pm
    Ban all food and drink advertisements on TV if they do not meet criteria for nutritious food
    Ban the use of antibiotics as sprays on crops
    Ban food irradiation within NZ
    Ban irradiated food imports
    Ban growth hormones for animals
    Ban crown agency investments in any entity that denies climate change!!
    Ban crown agency investments in any entity that is involved in tobacco
    Ban crown agency investments in any entity that is involved in environmentally damaging oil extraction or gold mining
    Ban non UN sanctioned military involvement (so China and Russia gets to veto all NZ engagements)
    Ban NZ from military treaties which are based on the right to self defence
    Ban NZers from serving as mercenaries
    Ban new casinos
    Allow existing casinos to be banned
    Ban promotion of Internet gambling
    Ban advertising of unhealthy food to children
    Ban cellphone towers within 300 metres of homes
    Ban new buildings that do not confirm to sustainable building principles
    Ban migrants who do not undertake Treaty of Waitangi education programmes
    Ban new prisons
    Ban semi-automatic weapons
    Ban genetic mixing between specieis
    Ban ocean mineral extractions within the EEZ
    Ban limited liability companies by making owners responsible for liability of products
    Ban funding of PTEs that compete with public tertiary institutes
    Ban the importation of goods and services that do not meet quality and environmental certification standards in production, lifecycle analysis, and eco-labelling
    Ban goods that do not meet quality and sustainability standards for goods which are produced and/or sold in Aotearoa/New Zealand
    Ban new urban highways or motorways
    Ban private toll roads
    Ban import of vehicles more than seven years old unless they meet emission standards
    Ban imported goods that do not meet standards for durability and ease of recycling
    Ban landfills
    Ban new houses without water saving measures
    Ban programmes on TVNZ with gratuitous violence

  29. robertguyton says:

    That list of groundless tripe, JC.
    No surprise you’ve coveted that all this time.
    Btw – Tracey, if you’ve got an hour to ‘waste’, I’m on Naional Radio tonight from 9:00 – 10:00. Cosmo’s interviewing Robyn and I about our projects. I expect I’ll come across as sounding as though I have authority. At least, I hope I will :-)
    I’m on Home and Garden tomorrow morning at 8:20 as well. Same attitude, probably.

  30. Mr E says:

    Leading up to an election I like to be apolitical. Sit on the fence. Let the parties earn their place. Reading JC’s list makes it very hard to stay on the fence.
    Robert, if you have a moment and if you can, would you address some of the list? I agree that it is tripe and fear greens have tripe policies.
    Regardless I will try to stay on the fence albeit awkwardly.

  31. JC says:

    “That list of groundless tripe, JC.”

    Good to see you reject the list.

    Welcome to the National Party.

    JC

  32. TraceyS says:

    Good, but not very original Mr E. The idea (or at least part of it) was put forward by James Lovelock in his 2007 book “The Revenge of Gaia”, where he described the personal computer as one of the “greenest inventions ever”. He also showed us why it is wise to be careful with authority, quoted saying “The problem is we don’t know what the climate is doing. We thought we knew 20 years ago. That led to some alarmist books – mine included – because it looked clear-cut, but it hasn’t happened…” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lovelock)

  33. TraceyS says:

    See my reply to Mr E @8:28pm.

  34. Captain Fantastic says:

    Heres some things that I think we will never see the green types try to ban. Can anyone think of any more ?

    Ban abortions because they are harmful to defenceless New Zealanders.

    Ban excessive or increased taxation.

    Ban excessive State interference in lives of ordinary people.

    The worst feature about the green propensity to ban is the massed hordes of policemen that they would need to unleash. All carrying sticks and shackles.

    Then our green fuhrers would want to ban negative thoughts and jokes about greens because they have persecution paranoia and don’t have a sense of humour anyway.

  35. Viv K says:

    So Nick Cater (remember him? the subject of the post) wants to turn the working class against the middle class. As if the right wing actually care about workers, no one believes that . It’s just divide and rule strategy. National’s attacks on the unemployed, sole parents and the sick will come home to roost and they will lose votes. National also know that an ever increasing number of New Zealanders take the Greens seriously, hence the attacks, such as this post of Ele’s. JC, Para, Mr E, Capt F and Andrei’s sniggering, sneers and strawman construction may entertain you all, but it’s hardly intelligent debate and it won’t change any left leaning or green voter’s views. Tracey does a better job of arguing actual issues and staying civil, perhaps the rest of you could pick up a few tips from her.

  36. robertguyton says:

    Certainly, Mr E. I’ll do that in the morning.

  37. sallyco says:

    Ele has been very gentle in her analysis – This from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    “Eco-socialism, green socialism or socialist ecology is an ideology merging aspects of Marxism, socialism, green politics, ecology and alter-globalization. Eco-socialists generally believe that the expansion of the capitalist system is the cause of social exclusion, poverty, war and environmental degradation through globalization and imperialism, under the supervision of repressive states and transnational structures.

    Eco-socialists advocate dismantling capitalism, focusing on common ownership of the means of production by freely associated producers, and restoring the commons.”

    RG and his mates’ theories are of an impractical nature. Their dangerous ideology most definitely does not reflect the beliefs and interests of our nation and political system.

  38. robertguyton says:

    Viv’s correct! How does she do it?

  39. TraceyS says:

    I stay civil Viv because this sort of discussion IS entertainment. Much of what we humans do outside of directly productive activities is entertainment of sorts. Entertainment is important but not as important as producing things we need to live. You might be surprised to find that there are “right-wingers” in those sectors who do care about their employees and wouldn’t have the foggiest clue what the heck “divide-and-rule” means. I only know that term because I went to university and worked in the public sector.

  40. Mr E says:

    Ha Viv,
    I am not going to judge the political comentary here. But I am going to judge the reactions of people. I read numerous blogs including some with a strong green influence. It’s fair to say there are stones thrown from both sides but in my opinion a majority to the childish ones are from the green side. Numerous numerous name calling of John Key. Often nothing to do with professional views of his actions, policies or views. The relatively small amount of childish behaviour from the other side seems to get an overwhelming emotive response. My reaction in these circumstances is to think ‘they can give it but can’t take it’.

    Personally I think politicians should be above reproach and thick skinned. Watching name calling and emotive responses, simply brings me to judgement. I suspect there are plenty of NZers like me.

  41. JC says:

    “As if the right wing actually care about workers, no one believes that . ”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10899486

    “For many OECD countries, lower income households tended to lose more, or gain less, than high income families,” the report says.

    For New Zealand, however, there was a small gain for bottom-decile households of 1 to 3 per cent and a net fall, of around 8 per cent, for the top decile.”

    You again show your massive and irrational prejudice against National which has served the lower paid better than richer countries like Australia, UK and US.

    I refer you to the various polls of the last five or so years that show National enjoys about 47% of the vote compared to the dismal showing of the Greens and Labour who cannibalise each others vote and the continued soaring success of Key’s popularity.

    You can if you like attribute this remarkable National success to various conspiracy theories but the bottom line is the public see the Left as a bunch of under achieving wankers with a massive sense of entitlement based on useless university degrees and political patronage.

    Over to you, but remember the polls support my argument.

    JC

  42. Viv K says:

    JC, I have a completely rational objection to a significant number of this National government’s policies. As for prejudice, you calling the left ‘a bunch of under achieving wankers’ is a good example of that. The article you linked to confirms that NZ, like the US, Australia and the UK, is a very unequal society. Mr Cater was not here to tell people that, we saw the over the top reaction of the Deputy Prime Minister to someone who did. To Sally, who thinks socialists are dangerous, that’s such a US irrational prejudice. The cold war is over Sally, did you miss that?

  43. Viv K says:

    Tracey, as a right winger who cares about employees will you be lobbying Simon Bridges to stop the amendments to the employment relations act that are in breach of international labour laws? It seems you take comments about this government’s attacks on worker’s rights as a personal slight against you an employer, I’m sorry you perceive them that way. Most employers are fair, decent people who are workers themselves alongside the people they employ, but we need proper legal protection for workers to stop abuses by the few bad apples. Because of the rogues out there we can’t just hope and trust that when our kids go into the labour market they will have a benevolent employer.

  44. robertguyton says:

    Another rabid Tory! Where do they come from?

  45. Paranormal says:

    ‘affected lisp’? How can you possibly get that from the written word? Your comments, that always seem at odds with the ideals you espouse, say so much about your inner self.

  46. Paranormal says:

    So there is no hard left element in the greens? Clearly Wed Wussel (and I’ve explained why I use that epithet – you just don’t like people being reminded of the truth), Sue Bradford, Keith Locke and others were in the party because they like trees?

    Don’t expect others to be as naive or (is that purposely) blind as you.

  47. robertguyton says:

    Mr E. You say you ‘fear greens have tripe policies’. I fear National has tripe policies, so we are very alike in at least one thing. I don’t suppose though, that you have read the Green’s policies at all. They are all available for you to peruse on the party’s website. None are tripe. All are well thought-through and democratically arrived-at. National’s policies, otoh, were described just recently as having been ”set by the top 1 per cent or so for the top 1 per cent’. I suppose you’d like to ‘shift your carcass’ off the fence and challenge that claim and I look forward to hearing from you.
    Now, the list of things the Green’s detractors would have you believe are ‘to do’.
    Here’s one: Ban the use of the ground-up remains of sheep and cows as stock feed.
    As you’ve declared the list ‘tripe’, Mr E, I’m assuming you are vehemently supportive of National’s plans to use the ground-up remains of sheep and cows as stock feed. If your view differs, please let us know, or we’ll assume you are 100% for the idea.
    Here’s another from the list:
    Ban the further holding of marine mammals in captivity except as part of an approved threatened species recovery strategy.
    Again, you must be supportive of this National Party policy to allow anyone at all to capture and display wild sea mammals. Mr E, I’m disappointed in you. You seem to hate animals. If the National Party deem that it’s good and proper to catch Maui dolphins, teach them trick like balancing plastic balls on their noses and have them installed in pools at MacDonalds outlets, that’s good enough for you, it seems from your comments.
    There are plenty more examples in the list. Shall I go on?

  48. Paranormal says:

    Viv – Care to take a look at the language you use and where it may have come from? Are you concerned you are continuing the hard left/Marxist anti everything monologue.

  49. Paranormal says:

    Viv – Care to put the changes into perspective? The labour laws had swung too far to the left under Liarbour. This was actually damaging the ‘workers’ and the nation (in reality one and the same). Just look at the level of youth unemployment due to the scrapping of youth rates. National’s moves are an attempt
    to swing the pendulum back again. We’re yet to see if the result is a swing too far or not far enough back to favour those nasty capitalists you hate so much. But lets be clear – swings too far either way damage our productivity, and ultimately everyone suffers.

  50. TraceyS says:

    No Viv, I’ll certainly be doing no such lobbying. I have the suspicion that your and my definition of “bad apple” would be far different. That is probably understandable given that we come from different backgrounds. Anyway, we do have legal protections from “the few bad apples” for workers and I don’t see them being significantly eroded. But the business environment is not all wine and roses either. It is not easy to navigate the regulatory environment while managing to be sustainable and profitable. What people like you seem to forget sometimes is that businesses need to be profitable or they won’t be there to provide jobs. Rather than focussing on the few who are truly “bad apples” we need to be looking at ways to make business easier for SME’s in particular so that they can employ more people and be better in their employment practices. As it is at present, there is a very high risk of being labelled a “bad apple” for making a simple and honest mistake. Like dismissing an employee without getting all the steps right necessary for the high standard of procedural fairness required, even if the decision is substantively justified. This risk is not just in the area of employment, but also in relation to resource management regulation. You can be labelled a “bad apple” these days for doing seemingly ordinary things like http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/252101/high-court-sets-aside-disturbed-riverbed-finding. What value is added by labelling good people as “bad apples” or worse, criminals? The good and the considerate will be the first to shut up shop rather than risk being labelled in this way. Then that will leave the work to be picked up by the dross that you lament. A self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was.

    The National government in my opinion is making progress in the right direction, but it is not enough. More power to them to make further changes.

  51. Viv K says:

    My language Paranormal? You use words such as ‘Liarbour’! That’s childish and doesn’t further debate. I’ve never said I hate capitalists, you said that. Far too much claiming someone else believes something, or has said something goes on in these comments. As I replied to Tracey last week, you can suggest what you like, but don’t imply that it’s what I meant. My language is quite clear I think and as for things I’ve said here being hard left or Marxist, yeah right!

  52. Viv K says:

    ‘What people like you seem to forget sometimes is that businesses need to be profitable’, please see my comment to Paranormal about making assumptions about what other people think. Please stick to responding to what is said and not making up stuff that you think I think and arguing about that. As for the rest of your comment, I think we are back at one of our agree to disagree places. I’m off to prune some rambling roses.

  53. TraceyS says:

    “Tracey, as a right winger who…”

    LOL Viv, you go by a different set of rules eh?

    Here’s a rule I go by. Don’t stereotype if you’re not prepared to be stereotyped yourself.

    I notice you conveniently side-stepped the guts of the argument, preferring to get yourself all twisted up. Enjoy the pruning and best wear gloves, thorns and thin skin not a good mix.

  54. robertguyton says:

    You are a right-winger, Tracey. That’s not stereo-typing you. It’s a fact. Or do you dispute that? What’s important, is a agreed definition of ‘left-wing’, ‘right-wing’, greeny, Tory etc. Until that’s reached, it’s all pish.

  55. Viv K says:

    Tracey, if you don’t want to be labelled right wing that’s fine, I’ll try and remember that. I am happy to be a left wing, feminist, greenie, because I consider those to be good things. I’m not thin skinned, but I am frustrated by people who put up straw men. Your latest being the idea that I don’t understand that businesses need to make profits, last week it was that I was suggesting business pay tax on their gross income. Making up something that you think someone else thinks and then asking them to defend it is a waste of everyone’s time. But as you said earlier, it’s entertainment, so I guess I am expecting too much.

  56. Viv K says:

    Sorry Tracey, but what was the guts of your argument that I sidestepped? A quick summary. I don’t want to misinterpret you.

  57. robertguyton says:

    “Here’s a rule I go by. Don’t stereotype if you’re not prepared to be stereotyped yourself.”

    Which of course, Tracey, is something that you do, regularly.
    Stereotyper!

  58. TraceyS says:

    I’ve just been reflecting on how appropriately titled the post was.

  59. robertguyton says:

    The title’s inappropriate and reflects badly on the person who penned it. “John Key, poisonous leader of a poisonous party” – what do you reckon, Tracey? Appropriate title for any post? Make you feel the writer of such a post has a valid argument to make?
    Just askin’.

  60. Viv K says:

    Really Tracey? Back to nasty labelling. Oh well, as Tiffany would say, have a lovely day :-)

  61. sallyco says:

    The Green movements’ delusion of repeating something often enough that eventually the masses will believe it… has come unstuck.

    Thankfully many thinking people have not become brain washed by the constant Green propaganda that has been dished out as reality.

    As William James (1842-1910) the father of modern Psychology said

    “There’s nothing so absurd that if you repeat it often enough, people will believe it.”

  62. robertguyton says:

    “Brighter Future”

    ” I don’t recall”

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! great Sunday humour there, Sallyco, thanks!

  63. TraceyS says:

    Those sound like the kind of words you use commonly on your blog, Robert. But maybe, in light of this discussion, you shouldn’t.

    Ele didn’t use names and make it personal as you do. I do not accept that she has to rise to a different standard to you. It is somewhat annoying that you think it’s acceptable for you to write posts from the gutter. If it’s respect and authority you are after, then you won’t find it there.

    Both you and Viv criticize me for stereotyping and reading between the lines – things we all commonly do – and perfectly acceptable by me as they are open to challenge and correction. Never have I attacked either of you personally by using names to intimidate as you, Robert, do whenever it suits you.

    I do hope that you will be more careful with your own posts in future.

  64. Mr E says:

    Thanks for the response Robert. And sorry for the slow reply.

    You called it “groundless tripe” Robert. I was agreeing with you. It did sound like tripe – Tripe – Disliked by most.

    I can neither confirm nor deny if I have read party policy or not. They seem to jump from party proposals to polices and back again. Not sure what I have read these days. Needless to say I have visited the greens site and read something. I suspect you are wrong.

    Ground up sheep and cows as stock feed. Banning it??? What on earth are you thinking? Pigs are omnivores. Should we ban it and feed them ground up eels instead? When did we get to the point that ground up sheep and beef is good enough for humans but not pigs?

    I have never seen marine mammals in captivity in New Zealand. We kiwis are smart and vote with our feet. Marineland closed years ago. Maybe you can help me though. Are there any marine mammals captive in New Zealand solely for the purpose of entertainment? If not your point is moot. Maybe the greens should ban lazer blasters too. Cause they could be bad. Maybe time travel. Cause it could happen.

    How do you get the idea I hate animals? You seem to be twisting a tall tail in order to attempt some form of divisiveness. You’ll not annoy me Robert. I am too old and too long in the tooth not to recognise cheap poorly formed politics.

    And sure go on with your list… I am finding some level of entertainment in your presentation of it.

  65. Mr E says:

    Another name calling Councillor…. Where do they come from?

  66. Paranormal says:

    Viv – my comment was not meant as a personal slight. It was meant as a dispassionate look at where the language we use comes from. It also followed a European Green Environmentalist coming to stay at our place. We had a really good and wide ranging conversation but it was interesting to note the beliefs she held and the language she used to express them were the same as yours. In looking at the language you both use it seemed to me the source was the same. It tracks back to hard left/marxist ideals.

    I’ve read a post this weekend (can’t remember where) on colonisation of the NZ left and think it is apropo.

    BTW I use “Liarbour” as a reminder that those in that party are still the same as those that lied and cheated their way through nine years under Clark.

  67. Dave Kennedy says:

    The word “ban” has been used to inflate intent for a political purpose, but the use of this list has interesting implications. Obviously if these were intended as examples of crazy policy it means that JC must support the opposite. This makes horrifying reading:

    Support fizzy drinks in schools
    Support fuel inefficient vehicles
    Support all gaming machines in pubs
    Support the GCSB
    Support violent TV programmes before 10 pm
    Support the feeding of antibiotics to animals that are not sick
    Support companies that do not comply with a Code of Corporate Responsibility
    Support ACC from investing in enterprises that provide products or services that significantly increase rates of injury or illness or otherwise have significant adverse social or environmental effects
    Support commercial Genetic Engineering trials
    Support field testing on production of GE food
    Support import of GE food
    Support Urban Sprawl
    Suport non citizens/residents from owning land
    Support further corporate farming
    Support sale of high country farms to NZers who do not live in NZ at least 185 days a year
    Support the transport by sea of farm animals, for more than 24 hours
    Support crates for sows
    Support battery cages for hens
    Support factory farming of animals
    Support the use of mechanically recovered meat in the food chain
    Support the use of the ground-up remains of sheep and cows as stock feed
    Support animal testing where animals suffer, even if of benefit to humans
    Support cloning of animals
    Support use of animals in GE
    Support GE animal food
    Support docking of dogs tails
    Support intrusive animal experimentation as a teaching method in all educational institutions
    Support smacking……..

    Despite the inaccuracy of much on the initial list, do we really want to live in a world where most of these are encouraged?

  68. robertguyton says:

    Ha! Dave’s trumped you, Mr E!
    Clever Greens are a Tory’s greatest threat.
    Read his words and tremble!

  69. Viv K says:

    Can you give an example of the type of language you mean Paranormal? I am curious. Re liars etc. There are instances where I am pretty sure our current Prime Minister has lied to the country, such as claiming he can’t remember his stance on the ’81 tour. I am a little younger than the PM and find that unbelievable. However, I won’t make up some derogatory name for him, I think it would lessen the impact of any comment. That’s how I personally respond to such names whether used by you, Robert or anyone else.

  70. Mr E says:

    Really? I can find good reasons to support all those things.
    He’s simply shows he can’t discount the list. And that makes him and the greens look silly.

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