Coalition conundrum

The ODT editorial on Labour’s reshuffle highlights the coalition conundrum:

. . . With support for the Greens remaining at election night highs, it is conceivable that party could have five ministers in any future government, perhaps even including a deputy prime minister. . .

Despite the need to govern together, Labour and the Greens are not always natural friends, with each party continuing to snipe away at each other. To provide the electorate with a compelling argument on why it should vote for a Labour-Green government though, some collaboration is necessary. . .

To be  lead a stable government under MMP the major party has to attract the swinging voters in the middle.

Voters need to be convinced parties could work together but the people in the middle are least likely to be attracted to Labour if they fear the Green Party  will drag it too far to the left.

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23 Responses to Coalition conundrum

  1. Andrei says:

    To be lead a stable government under MMP the major party has to attract the swinging voters in the middle.

    Not very clever of National to alienate voters such as myself is it Ele?

    We may well end up with a Labour/ Green coalition because me and mine will be boycotting the ballot box since from where we sit the is SFA differnece between a Labour/ Green coalition and a National led government.

  2. robertguyton says:

    Enter your comment here…
    Thje Greens won’t be dragging the coalition, Ele. They’ll be leading it.Thje Greens won’t be dragging the coalition, Ele. They’ll be leading it.

  3. TraceyS says:

    Not very clever either for you and others to “boycott the ballot box” knowing that this might lead to instability. Thanks very much, Andrei, from all the little businesses out there like us who rely on relative stability to a high degree because we need it to continue employing people and to offer cost effective products and services.

    Thanks to your disenchantment we might end up with a government that regards gay marriages and composting toilets as the big issues of the day. Thank you very,very much.

  4. Andrei says:

    Tracey we will have gay “marriages” before the end of May in this country – the legislation being passed under a National Government.

  5. TraceyS says:

    Andrei, I’m not against that in a moral sense, as you are. I just don’t think it’s a really critical issue for the government. There are so many more important issues in front of us. Call me a prude, but I actually find discussion of sexual matters at this level a little embarrassing to listen to. It seems so out of place. Some of my friends are gay but we don’t talk about private stuff like that. I have no idea if they intend to stay together for life and I don’t need to know either. Life must be pretty great for most in NZ if we think lack of gay marriages is a problem!

    So too, I’m sure you will agree, climate change is not an imperative matter for the government to address right now. With the exception, maybe, of starting to plan for eventual sea level increases. A massive job, but we have plenty of time ahead for that. Labour+Greens aren’t going to do anything about starting that process because the Green side seems to be convinced that they have all the answers and knowledge of the climate control mechanisms. When really all they know is based on faulty science that has been politicised. Unfortunately that point might not become apparent to most until AFTER the election.

    Nor is the minimum wage issue relevant to us – $13.75 or $15.00 – neither will bother our business because we don’t employ anyone at those levels and are not likely to. Nor do many of the businesses we deal with either as clients or suppliers. But the living wage idea annoys me because if all cleaners etc are bumped up to the rate of $18-20 per hour, then our really skilled guys doing (often) dangerous work will feel undervalued and want more. We can’t necessarily afford more, particularly if we’re operating in an uncertain political environment.

    Ideas to lower the NZD annoy me too. When you spend $40k a month on fuel, that can only hurt. Those extra costs will have to be passed on to you know who? The public. There will be a bit of a delay for the pain to be felt though – long enough for a Labour+Green govt to blame it on some other factor.
    The sort of things that bother me are how we will get our forest harvested in 12 years’ time. The amount of wood coming on stream for logging is set to double over this time and already some forest owners are having a hard time finding enough crews to do the work. Where is the workforce going to come from? While there’s unemployment we should not have to worry about labour supply. But the real conundrum is how to get the people matched up with the opportunity in time.

  6. Andrei says:

    The sort of things that bother me are how we will get our forest harvested in 12 years’ time. The amount of wood coming on stream for logging is set to double over this time and already some forest owners are having a hard time finding enough crews to do the work. Where is the workforce going to come from?

    If you want big burly men for future forestry work you need big burly men, todays forestry workers, to be making lots bouncing burly baby boys with their wives today and to raise them in the ways of their fathers, earning an honest days pay for an honest days work in the forest :)

    Alas effete urban homosexual white collar types are not very good at conceiving and then raising bouncing babies boys who will mature into tomorrows burly forestry workers. :(

  7. robertguyton says:

    “I’m sure you will agree, climate change is not an imperative matter for the government to address right now.”

    Misguided fools believe this, yes.

  8. TraceyS says:

    What’s the rate of unemployment Andrei, around seven per cent? Or 160,000. How many people currently employed in logging? About 4,000. So in theory it shouldn’t be too hard to find another 4,000 from the unemployed labour supply. The numbers are there at least. We do not need to breed more big burly boys. In fact, for replanting and silverculture work, being big and burly probably isn’t as important as being fit and nimble.

    There is more technology around now and less heavy work with automated machinery. I had the pleasure of seeing a brand-new harvester in action recently – amazing. A woman could even operate it!! Attitude and aptitude of workers is far more important than size. And that hints at the problem –

    The attitude of some in NZ towards those doing well in business stinks. And so too does the attitude of some young people who think that certain opportunities are not good enough for them. That combination is dynamite. It’s an issue of values – particularly that of respect. How much respect do you see the Labour and Green parties showing towards businesses for the important social roles they play? I see nothing but distain, but maybe that’s just how they come across in the media….

    They hate the idea of businesses doing such a good job for workers that unions are redundant. But that is happening. And so it should be. In a small business workers are often like family and it makes sense to look out for them. And the Green Party should be all for it. But look at the tone of some commenters on this blog. It’s very telling.

    There are two ways you can “vote” for them if that is what you want, and one of them is by not voting at all. You will do nothing to help the young people who grow up wanting to do the work of “big burly men”.

  9. TraceyS says:

    Really? Is that what you think I am! Usually we have a bit of a challenge before the insults come. Are you tired today?

  10. Andrei says:

    It’s an issue of values

    Exactly tracey values, something entirely lacking in a ruling classes.

    And if our leaders values are in the toilet, then what can you expect from the those they aspire to lead?

    Why do you think my big girls are currently thriving in Australia, with good degrees conferred from New Zealand institutions, without owing money particularly that borrowed for student loans, preferring to work as they studied to fund their living and educational expenses?

    And why do you think that they are doing this instead of collecting the DPB?

    Values Tracey, it all comes down to values.

    When a leader stands up and expresses the values that I hold, instead of dumping on them, with a vision for the future which encompasses developing a well adjusted people and a nation where all can thrive and prosper, then I will vote. But when its just a matter of who is going get the goodies and who will get dumped on while pandering to noisy interest groups phtttt

    But for now it is just a matter of which set of mediocrities will preside over the social, moral and economic decay of this country and as far as I’m concerned they are all as equally worthy of scorn.

  11. Viv says:

    It’s patronising to workers to say that businesses are doing such a good job of looking after them so they don’t need unions. Maybe you are a benevolent, caring employer, but there are some out there who are not and it’s for the workers to decide if they need unions or not.

  12. JC says:

    “Alas effete urban homosexual white collar types are not very good at conceiving and then raising bouncing babies boys who will mature into tomorrows burly forestry workers. :(”

    Fortunately this isn’t the catchment from which we gain our forestry types.. rather they come from the more fertile groups like Maori and forestry families.

    Incidentally NZ remains near the most fertile country in the Western world.

    JC

  13. JC says:

    And 90% of workers in the private sector have decided they dont need unions, and the industries that are unionised tend to be confined to the major industrial plants.

    JC

  14. Viv says:

    And the workers decided whether or not to be in the union, not Tracey deciding they didn’t need one.

  15. Andrei says:

    JC New Zealand’s fertility rate has dropped below replacement and its high value compared to much of the West is raised by the fecundity of young unmarried women in South Auckland and Cannons Creek

  16. TraceyS says:

    Yep, Viv, the workers decided. I’m sure you value freedom of choice as much I do, so you will find this all very encouraging. The decision not to join a union reflects that most employers can be trusted, or trusted at least as much as the unions can be.

    Look at most of the cases that go through the Employment Relations Authority. Most employers fail in their duties on process, not substance. It is very difficult to get the process perfect, even more so when the substance is significant. I hope that as an employer you are never in that situation.

  17. TraceyS says:

    “And if our leaders values are in the toilet, then what can you expect from the those they aspire to lead?”

    Better

  18. Viv says:

    I do value individual freedom of choice, but understand that there can be conflict between that and the public good and/or moral and ethical issues and justice and environmental issues. Andrei doesn’t seem to approve of a gay person’s freedom of choice to marry because that conflicts with his views on morality. I don’t think someone should have the freedom to choose to pollute the natural world for personal financial gain. Another essay question there.

  19. Andrei says:

    Viv, I started this thread with the observation that since National does not represent my views and rides roughshod over them often I would not be voting for National.

    For this I got four thumbs down from those who believe National has a divine right to rule and when they do not occupy the treasury benches it is some sort of aberration.

    And yet each election sees a drop in voter participation as cynicism in the process grows.

    For example National did campaign on Asset Sales last election and having won it is not unreasonable for them to proceed and yet we have got nowhere as the loosers create obstacle after obstacle to delay the process. What’s with that?

    Meanwhile really radical stuff that nobody talked about during the campaign gets shoved down our throats – and thew left wing social engineering steam roller is unstoppable.

    My vision would be the promotion policies that would build a NATION where my children and grandchildren could thrive and prosper but this sort vision is sadly lacking in our political class today as they divide and conquer, sharing the spoils of power amongst their sychophants and crapping over the rest of us and the future

  20. homepaddock says:

    The Marriage Bill isn’t National policy, it’s a Private Members’ Bill which will have a conscience vote and has people for and against in both National and Labour.

    The differences – or lack of them – between National and Labour which you refer to in your first comment will take more time than I have now to answer, but I will do a post on it.

  21. Andrei says:

    The Marriage Bill isn’t National policy, it’s a Private Members’ Bill which will have a conscience vote and has people for and against in both National and Labour.

    That is sophistry – the leadship of this country is in the hands of National and it will be under National that this will occur.

    And it was in no party manifesto.

    This is not the only example of this sort of thing

  22. TraceyS says:

    Be practical Andrei, there will still be homosexuality whether this Bill passes or not. Opposing it is not the means to an end that you think it is. In your own words, you can’t legislate for ….. (you know the rest).

    You should focus on what really counts for your loved ones. It sounds like they are getting set up for happy family life. Not all is good or easy for families in NZ (or Australia) and much of that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the lesbians next door. When your daughter is at home alone with her first-born and suffering from post-natal depression, with her husband away at work all day working long and hard to feed the family, she might in desperation even find the shoulder of a caring neighbour who just happens to be gay.

    When I was in that situation I would have gratefully accepted help from ANY person. Goodness is always there when you really need it to be and when you are prepared to look for it.

  23. Andrei says:

    Tracey, you introduced the topic of gay marriage to this thread in the context of using it as a threat as to what might be on the agenda for a Labour/Green coalition – look above.

    What I am saying is this is a classic example of the type of policy that is being enacted without it ever having being discussed as a philosophical direction for the incoming Government if this party gains the treasury benches – and that these things come out of left field.

    It is true that I am steadfastly against it – it is an example of over bearing Government arrogance that they think they can rewrite an institution that has millenia of human history behind it.

    It is also blasphemy! and this is the real attraction to the elites, kid yourselves not

    Anyway we are used to blasphemy in this country – I was told by a Labour MP many years ago when blasphemous objects were placed on display in Te Papa, “our place” – HAH! that it is good for the Government to challenge peoples notions and beliefs.

    I had no intention of discussing gay marriage on this thread but it is an example of how out of control our parliament has become, a bunch of arrogant arseholes who think they know better than everybody else despite in many cases having done not a damn thing in their lives that would command any respect.

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